Speaking of governors...

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by noonereal

Bullshit.

You can die from a cold for God's sake. Don't be part of the herd. It's stupid to be cattle.

and there is nothing selfish about it

if you got little scared Johny his shot... nothing for you and Johnny to worry about. I don't know ANYONE who did not have both rubella and the measles as a kid. Don't know a one that missed more than a fw days of school.

I had been vaccinated Florence had not.

Great anology about latte and guns though.

I was in bed for over a week and delirious for two days. Florence had the same experience, in fact her mother left her alone in the house only to be met off the bus by her daughter walking down the road in her pajamas delirious and screaming.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

He and Scott Walker may both be assholes, but they're both right with regard to public sector unions. His proposed changes are exactly what have been in place for Federal sector employees unions for decades. Public sector unions should contribute to the planning of annual picnics and office moves, but little else.

FWIW, FDR himself was strongly opposed to public sector unions. The unholy alliance that has grown between public sector unions and the Democratic Party results in all sorts of nefarious stuff, mostly huge deferred compensation programs that break the bank after the complicit politician is gone.

The labor movement has lost so much representation in the private sector that they now must rely upon public sector unions to undergird the foundering labor movement. That's not what public sector employees should be doing.

Oh please, what a steaming carload of shit. Walker is a union busting teabagger. Rauner is Walker on steroids. You can't really believe that either one of them will stop with public employee unions. Maybe you don't want it to stop with public employee unions. If that's the case, just fucking say so. Rauner is a ruthless modern day JP Morgan. He wants American unions, in both the public and private sector gone. As far as Rauner is concerned the working class should consider themselves lucky to have jobs. As far as Rauner is concerned they have no rights...particularly rights not to collectively bargain for a living wage and reasonable benefits. Illinois and most other states are already "at will" and the workers have no rights to a reasonable explanation for why they've been canned, much less any recourse without buying an attorney his/her next BMW by going to court over it.

And your contention that this is about some unholy alliance between union leaders and Democrat politicians is pure bullshit. Illinois has had as many Republican governors as Democrats in the past half-century. Republican politicians have had just as much to do with the pay and pension situation in Illinois (and any other state) as have Democrats. If states are in trouble in part because of public employee contracts and pensions, it's the fault of vote whoring politicians, not union leaders. The union people are just doing their job...getting the best deal they can for their members. But politicians are doing what they do for their own political careers. So when the union guys and the political guys are sitting around the negotiation table what is in the union guy's head is getting the best deal he can for his members. What's in the politician's head is he might lose three votes if the union goes out and the garbage doesn't get picked up this week. So the vote whoring politicians cave in every time...and then turn around and blame it on the commie public employee unions and greedy double dipping public employees. And of course, we have vote whoring politicians because of the lazy-ass, ignorant electorate.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Oh please, what a steaming carload of shit. Walker is a union busting teabagger. Rauner is Walker on steroids. You can't really believe that either one of them will stop with public employee unions. Maybe you don't want it to stop with public employee unions. If that's the case, just fucking say so....

All I said was that I'm against public sector unions. This view has no bearing on my support for private sector unions. What these Governors are doing reflects almost exactly what has been the case for decades for Federal employees. Civil Service laws/reg's provide far more employee protection than any collective bargaining agreement could.

And your contention that this is about some unholy alliance between union leaders and Democrat politicians is pure bullshit.... What's in the politician's head is he might lose three votes if the union goes out and the garbage doesn't get picked up this week. So the vote whoring politicians cave in every time...

Your argument makes my very point. Thanks. You sure do get emotionally charged up about shit you barely understand - kinda like my Limbaugh-listening, Fox-viewing mother-in-law.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

The only reasons for this vaccination idiocy happening are ignorance, superstition, and religiosity.

And Thimerosal.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by finnbow

All I said was that I'm against public sector unions. This view has no bearing on my support for private sector unions. What these Governors are doing reflects almost exactly what has been the case for decades for Federal employees. Civil Service laws/reg's provide far more employee protection than any collective bargaining agreement could.

Look...you sit there and spew that you basically appreciate people like Walker and Rauner for ridding American of the scourge of public employee unions. So what are you gonna do finn...walk up to Scotty and Bruce after they've decimated public employees ability to have some power in negotiating their ability to support their families and say..."Scotty...Bruce...time to stop with the union busting now." First...they're asshole teabaggers they will never stop. Second...public employees should have the same rights as private sector employees. Put the blame for the poor financial condition of the states where it belongs...with the office holders responsible for the management of state government and spending and with the electorate that puts them there and keeps them there. Stop blaming the workers and their union representatives who are just doing the job they should be doing which is getting the best deal they can for the working people.

Originally Posted by finnbow

You sure do get emotionally charged up about shit you barely understand -

Is there some reason, besides being a completely pompous asshole, that you can't argue or state an opinion without this shit? Go fuck yourself. And stuff your smiley face up your fat zit-covered ass.

[Rajoo]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

.................................................. .................................................. ......
The union people are just doing their job...getting the best deal they can for their members. But politicians are doing what they do for their own political careers. So when the union guys and the political guys are sitting around the negotiation table what is in the union guy's head is getting the best deal he can for his members. What's in the politician's head is he might lose three votes if the union goes out and the garbage doesn't get picked up this week. So the vote whoring politicians cave in every time...and then turn around and blame it on the commie public employee unions and greedy double dipping public employees. And of course, we have vote whoring politicians because of the lazy-ass, ignorant electorate.

You have made my case. Union leaders are negotiating with politicians and bureaucrats. This constitutes the management that union leaders engage with to get the best deal? Do they even stop and think if the deal is sustainable. Politicians only know how to get reelected and spend tax payers money. Prime motivation of a bureaucrat is a lifetime job, paper pushing and developing an expertise in CYA. Do any of these people know what fiscal responsibility is?

Or for that matter, how many ex-government employees can find employment in the civilian field other than a few highly trained people (MIC excluded)? And why do you think that is?

I was at our DMV a couple weeks back, close to fifty people waiting to be served and an agent put up a "closed" sign on her window and announced to her coworkers she was going on a break. A lady next to me said that this will never happen in private industry since it's imperative that all windows be open for business especially since it was close to the end of their work day. Do the DMV in California have a union? Probably and mirrors the USPS.

I will put Comcast in the same group as any government agency, but they have a monopoly masquerading as a private business.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Boreas

And Thimerosal.

Bull fucking hockey. After years of debate, testing, data collection and rigorous analysis of the data...there is no correlation between childhood vaccinations and autism or anything else other than a little red spot at the injection site.

Thimerosal

Since 2001, with the exception of some influenza (flu) vaccines, thimerosal is not used as a preservative in routinely recommended childhood vaccines.

Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative used in some vaccines and other products since the 1930's. There is no convincing evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site. However, in July 1999, the Public Health Service agencies, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine manufacturers agreed that thimerosal should be reduced or eliminated in vaccines as a precautionary measure.
Vaccines and Thimerosal

CDC Study on "Prenatal and Infant Exposure to Thimerosal from Vaccines and Immunoglobins and Risk of Autism" (2010)
CDC Study on "Infant and Environmental Exposures to Thimerosal and Neuropsychological Outcomes at Ages 7 to 10 Years" (2007)
CDC Studies on Vaccines and Autism Adobe PDF file [PDF - 316 KB]
Frequently Asked Questions about Thimerosal
Timeline: Thimerosal in Vaccines (1999-2010)

Related Research

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Recommendations regarding the use of vaccines that contain thimerosal as a preservative. MMWR 1999:48(43);996-998.

McMahon AW, Iskander JK, Haber P, Braun MM, Ball R. Inactivated influenza vaccine (IIV) in children < 2 years of age: Examination of selected adverse events reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) after thimerosal-free or thimerosal-containing vaccine.External Web Site Icon Vaccine 2008;26(3):427–429.

Thompson WW, Price C, Goodson B, Shay DK, Benson P, Hinrichsen VL, Lewis E, Eriksen E, Ray P, Marcy SM, Dunn J, Jackson LA, Lieu TA, Black S, Stewart G, Weintraub ES, Davis RL, DeStefano F; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team. Early thimerosal exposure and neuropsychological outcomes at 7 to 10 years.External Web Site Icon New England Journal of Medicine 2007;357(13):1281–1292.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/thimerosal/

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Oh please, what a steaming carload of shit. Walker is a union busting teabagger. Rauner is Walker on steroids. You can't really believe that either one of them will stop with public employee unions. Maybe you don't want it to stop with public employee unions. If that's the case, just fucking say so. Rauner is a ruthless modern day JP Morgan. He wants American unions, in both the public and private sector gone. As far as Rauner is concerned the working class should consider themselves lucky to have jobs. As far as Rauner is concerned they have no rights...particularly rights not to collectively bargain for a living wage and reasonable benefits. Illinois and most other states are already "at will" and the workers have no rights to a reasonable explanation for why they've been canned, much less any recourse without buying an attorney his/her next BMW by going to court over it.

And your contention that this is about some unholy alliance between union leaders and Democrat politicians is pure bullshit. Illinois has had as many Republican governors as Democrats in the past half-century. Republican politicians have had just as much to do with the pay and pension situation in Illinois (and any other state) as have Democrats. If states are in trouble in part because of public employee contracts and pensions, it's the fault of vote whoring politicians, not union leaders. The union people are just doing their job...getting the best deal they can for their members. But politicians are doing what they do for their own political careers. So when the union guys and the political guys are sitting around the negotiation table what is in the union guy's head is getting the best deal he can for his members. What's in the politician's head is he might lose three votes if the union goes out and the garbage doesn't get picked up this week. So the vote whoring politicians cave in every time...and then turn around and blame it on the commie public employee unions and greedy double dipping public employees. And of course, we have vote whoring politicians because of the lazy-ass, ignorant electorate.

I like your your first paragraph.

As to your second.
I believe the unions needs to recognize that some municipalities cannot
carry the weight and they the unions need to make adjustments in their
demands. Some union victories are pyrrhic.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by BeamOn

You have made my case.

My ass.

Originally Posted by BeamOn

Union leaders are negotiating with politicians and bureaucrats. This constitutes the management that union leaders engage with to get the best deal? Do they even stop and think if the deal is sustainable. Politicians only know how to get reelected and spend tax payers money. Prime motivation of a bureaucrat is a lifetime job, paper pushing and developing an expertise in CYA. Do any of these people know what fiscal responsibility is?

It's not the union reps job to do the bureaucrat's job. The bureaucrat has just as much responsibility to not bankrupt the system as a private corporate executive. If the bureaucrat can't do that...the people should get rid of the bureaucrat...just like CEO of a corporation will get rid of the executive that can't do it, and the board of directors will get rid of the CEO who doesn't manage his/her executives. It's a corporate executive's responsibility to determine if the deal, any deal not just employee benefits deals, are sustainable. It's no less an elected official's responsibility. The union rep's responsibility is to get his worker the best deal he can for that worker's family.

Blaming workers and their union reps is a bullshit excuse for bureaucrats, and private sector management not doing their jobs. If union reps were "stopping and thinking" about the sustainability of what they're asking for going into negotiations...bureaucrats and corporate types would be hanging them out to dry and twist in the wind every goddamn time. And as usual, the people coming out on the short end would be the workers.

And if the electorate won't get rid of the politicians and bureaucrats who won't do their jobs then the electorate has nobody to blame but themselves. It's so easy for Joe Suburban Sixpack sitting in his fucking barcalounger with a bag of cheetos focusing on important stuff like the point spread in the Bears game to vote for Bruce Rauner and spew venom at greedy public employees.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by Dondilion

I like your your first paragraph.

As to your second.
I believe the unions needs to recognize that some municipalities cannot
carry the weight and they the unions need to make adjustments in their
demands. Some union victories are pyrrhic.

Thanks. I like your first sentence.

As to your second (uh...and third), I think my rant above states my position on that. Anyone involved in a labor benefits negotiation, on either side, brings demands they know they won't (and probably shouldn't) get, to the table. Everybody involved in a negotiation has their responsibility to the people and/or system they support. If everybody does their job, they not only keep their job, but they protect the system they represent. The problem with the public sector, with politics in America today, is not with the public employees or their union reps, it's with politicians and bureaucrats who don't do their jobs and get to keep them anyway, because the electorate is too lazy and stupid to get rid of them.