I am a union man, born and bred and I'll die a union man.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by bobabode

I've so far kept it non personal. Thanks for disregarding that. Don't mistake self deprectating humor for ignorance, my friends. As to falling for ruses and being simple? Where in the hell is that coming from? I really expect more from otherwise intelligent, engaged and honest members here.
Pat I read your first source and stand by my characterization of Zakarias. I'll take a look at the other and cook up some party line toeing for ya Rex.

Sorry if I offended you. It just seems so blatantly obvious to me that public sector and private sector unions have damn near nothing in common, other than a name and their support for the Democratic Party. In the case of private sector unions, that's reasonable and expected. As for public sector unions, it's actually kind of incestuous. I've had 38 years of direct experience with both public and private sector unions and it couldn't be more clear to me.

[bobabode]

My goal in starting a thread separate from the others already in progress and devolving into entrenched positions was to try to understand from an anti union standpoint where the logical conclusions were coming from. The title of the thread wasn't meant to be so much provocative as honest in regard to my own feelings and beliefs. That doesn't mean I wouldn't welcome the chance to bat around turds with the less than honest, idealogically rigid members. Neither Pat or Rex fit that description IMO to be clear.

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Sorry if I offended you. It just seems so blatantly obvious to me that public sector and private sector unions have damn near nothing in common, other than a name and their support for the Democratic Party. In the case of private sector unions, that's reasonable and expected. As for public sector unions, it's actually kind of incestuous. I've had 38 years of direct experience with both public and private sector unions and it couldn't be more clear to me.

Offended? Not so much Pat, no worries. See my follow up post above.

I do see psu members and their elected reps as facing a hobsons choice in who to support. At least the Dems are not advocating the destruction of all unions.
Is it the possible appearance of conflict of interest that's bugging you?

[Rex E.]

Originally Posted by bobabode

My goal in starting a thread separate from the others already in progress and devolving into entrenched positions was to try to understand from an anti union standpoint where the logical conclusions were coming from. The title of the thread wasn't meant to be so much provocative as honest in regard to my own feelings and beliefs. That doesn't mean I wouldn't welcome the chance to bat around turds with the less than honest, idealogically rigid members. Neither Pat or Rex fit that description IMO to be clear.

And I never named names but still agree 100% with Pat on this one. Unions have no place in public employment.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by bobabode

Offended? Not so much Pat, no worries. See my follow up post above.

I do see psu members and their elected reps as facing a hobsons choice in who to support. At least the Dems are not advocating the destruction of all unions.
Is it the possible appearance of conflict of interest that's bugging you?

I think it's more than just appearances. Zakaria's article, my earlier post and the sheer amount of public sector pension obligations together sum up my concerns.

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by Rex E.

And I never named names but still agree 100% with Pat on this one. Unions have no place in public employment.

Originally Posted by finnbow

I think it's more than just appearances. Zakaria's article, my earlier post and the sheer amount of public sector pension obligations together sum up my concerns.

Sorry for the butthurt impression I was throwing about.
I really would like to bull the idea around and see where it takes us. Y'all know I'm a true believer so try to convince me that Hoffa shouldn't be made a saint. Really just a small fish in a big old pond full of bucketmouths..

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

Sounds like we have a severe revenue generation issue..................

Maybe what we need is lower prices and more outsourcing?

Originally Posted by finnbow

Yeh, but you raise taxes and your tax base will move to another state (or even another country). I'm with Rex on this one. I simply cannot understand why otherwise bright people have been sucked into the public sector union's argument.

The Federal government recognized this years ago and changed their pension system in 1986. The states are at least 25 years behind the curve on this one.

It was a tongue in cheek jab at "race to the bottom" principle of operation.......

[HatchetJack]

I think workers should be protected and not taken advantage of but how long
can a company make it in this world economy paying high wages and trying
to compete with workers who live in straw huts and eat sticky rice? And should
my tax dollars be used to bail them out again? And how can the United States
generate revenue when there is no profit to be earned? And what about the
majority of American workers who do not earn tripple inflated union wages?
Are they expected to buy those same products on lower wages.
And who are the greedy ones again?

[icenine]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Yeh, but you raise taxes and your tax base will move to another state (or even another country). I'm with Rex on this one. I simply cannot understand why otherwise bright people have been sucked into the public sector union's argument.

The Federal government recognized this years ago and changed their pension system in 1986. The states are at least 25 years behind the curve on this one.

Sorry Pat but being for private unions but against public ones is like being only half-way for or against abortion. Nothing wrong with a fireman cop or teacher protecting their lively hoods thus giving us the public the best service they can. If you have noticed there does not seem to have been a rabid overreach on the part of most government employees lately. Walker got the concessions he wanted but had to shove in the knife anyway. Yes we need pension reform and there are some bad apples here in California...
If my union goes away and all the other public ones go away the USA is basically non-union so perhaps you will not have to concern yourself with the private unions you support.
I understand the the feelings of non-union taxpayers..... or maybe I dont. But our country is consumer driven. Lower wages means lower spending.Period. Lower spending will keep us in this recession. In third world countries government employees don't get paid alot...that is why you have to pay them bribes to do anything for you. In some countries the cops pull you over not to ticket you but to collect the shakedown...and if you don't pay you get the ticket
Can't happen here? I like stadium endings sorry....

[Oerets]

If the Government is willing to cut public sector employees negotiated deals in place then why not start with the elected ones first. Tie any cuts with cuts to all and see how far it goes. It's funny that when the unions were the strongest and tax rates a whole lot higher things were pretty good for all.

To me it looks like a race to the bottom is what is happening right now.

Cuts to teachers fireman ,police and the likes seem OK. But say anything about cuts to the vast Military Industrial Complex and see what happens!

Barney