I am a union man, born and bred and I'll die a union man.

[bobabode]

Why has this happened? It's democracy at its worst. Public-sector unions, powerful forces in states and localities, ask for regular pay increases. Governors and mayors can dole out only so much in salary hikes because of requirements for balanced budgets or other constraints. So instead, they hand out generous increases to pension benefits, since those costs will hit the budget many years later, when current officials are themselves comfortably in retirement.

Here in the bolded I see a fallacious argument. These people have seen a stagnant pool in regards to pay increases since the meltdown and in what appears to me a enormous amount of shouldering the extra burden by taking paycuts and a heavier workload forced on them by layoffs decided by the politicians. Is Zakarias really contending that retirees aren't taking it in the shorts, too? Maybe I'm wrong but here in my town they're hot and heavy racing to the bottom. Costa Mesa (Costa Misery is what our neighbors call us)
BTW an independent audit conducted on our city finances found the city fathers basis for laying off half of the citys workforce to be nothing but bullshyte but as usual facts and figures are to be ignored. They are continuing on their merry way and it appears they aren't slowing down and taking a look at it. They are soliciting bids to replace all regular city services and spending a lot revenue hiring all sorts of consultants and yes men.
I see a handwringer in Zakarias if he's actually a liberal but he's reading like a news flack. All in all it read like an op ed piece pandering to the fact that a hit article sells more advertising then something mundane and scholarly.

[bobabode]

I've been noticing a right turn in the LATimes of late. Makes me wonder who's behind that. Time to dig down that rabbits hole and see where it leads. WaPo seems to be indulging going that way too of late. NYTimes not as much.I could be confused.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by bobabode

Why has this happened? It's democracy at its worst. Public-sector unions, powerful forces in states and localities, ask for regular pay increases. Governors and mayors can dole out only so much in salary hikes because of requirements for balanced budgets or other constraints. So instead, they hand out generous increases to pension benefits, since those costs will hit the budget many years later, when current officials are themselves comfortably in retirement.

Here in the bolded I see a fallacious argument. These people have seen a stagnant pool in regards to pay increases since the meltdown and in what appears to me a enormous amount of shouldering the extra burden by taking paycuts and a heavier workload forced on them by layoffs decided by the politicians. Is Zakarias really contending that retirees aren't taking it in the shorts, too? Maybe I'm wrong but here in my town they're hot and heavy racing to the bottom. Costa Mesa (Costa Misery is what our neighbors call us)
BTW an independent audit conducted on our city finances found the city fathers basis for laying off half of the citys workforce to be nothing but bullshyte but as usual facts and figures are to be ignored. They are continuing on their merry way and it appears they aren't slowing down and taking a look at it. They are soliciting bids to replace all regular city services and spending a lot revenue hiring all sorts of consultants and yes men.
I see a handwringer in Zakarias if he's actually a liberal but he's reading like a news flack. All in all it read like an op ed piece pandering to the fact that a hit article sells more advertising then something mundane and scholarly.

Zakaria is one of the sharpest knives in the drawer IMHO. I don't know if you realize the sheer amount of public sector pension liabilities in this country. This may help:

A 2009 study by Robert Novy-Marx and Joshua Rauh for the National Bureau of Economic Research put the unfunded liability of all U.S. public pensions at $3.23 trillion. This collective pension debt, the authors warn, “dwarfs the states’ publicly traded debt,” making total state debt actually closer to 4.5 times the value of outstanding state bonds if pension liabilities are included.

Using a 2008 U.S. population of 304 million, Novy-Marx and Rauh calculate the per capita burden of this pension debt at $10,625 for every man, woman, and child in the United States.

http://www.carolinajournal.com/artic...y.html?id=7189

I think the unions have been quite successful in conflating the issues surrounding public sector and private sector unions. This has to do with the fact that the percentage of public sector union membership is over 4 times that of the private sector. This issues and labor dynamics are completely different, however. With all due respect, it seems that you've fallen for their ruse, Bob.

[BlueStreak]

Sounds like we have a severe revenue generation issue..................

Maybe what we need is lower prices and more outsourcing?

[Rex E.]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Private sector unions have to bargain with employers with the knowledge that they cannot make demands that will render the employer unprofitable. The employers obviously have to consider this as well. There is a natural (and desirable) tension between company profitability and employee pay/benefits.

With public sector unions, they're negotiating without this tension to balance profitability with employee compensation. Sitting on the other side of the table are politicians (and their surrogates) who are more than willing to buy votes. In many cases, they buy these votes with generous future benefits that are not paid out on their watch. They balance their budgets (and brag about it) while passing the costs for these concessions to future administrations.

Here's a good article on the subject from Fareed Zakaria, a very intelligent guy and hardly a conservative.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...117244,00.html

It's such a simple concept to understand. I don't get why it's so hard for it to sink in with some folks.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

Sounds like we have a severe revenue generation issue..................

Maybe what we need is lower prices and more outsourcing?

Yeh, but you raise taxes and your tax base will move to another state (or even another country). I'm with Rex on this one. I simply cannot understand why otherwise bright people have been sucked into the public sector union's argument.

The Federal government recognized this years ago and changed their pension system in 1986. The states are at least 25 years behind the curve on this one.

[Rex E.]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Yeh, but you raise taxes and your tax base will move to another state (or even another country). I'm with Rex on this one. I simply cannot understand why otherwise bright people have been sucked into the public sector union's argument.

The Federal government recognized this years ago and changed their pension system in 1986. The states are at least 25 years behind the curve on this one.

I'm guessing it's more of the "tow the party line" stuff and less objective thinking.

I wish we were all as objective as you seem to be, Pat!

[icenine]

Originally Posted by bobabode

I've been noticing a right turn in the LATimes of late. Makes me wonder who's behind that. Time to dig down that rabbits hole and see where it leads. WaPo seems to be indulging going that way too of late. NYTimes not as much.I could be confused.

They have an op ed guy named Goldberg who takes the right wing view but I think he is there just to rustle up the crowd. A sort of in house troll as it were. I think his first name is Jonah something like that. A sort of Mezz lol...

[bobabode]

I've so far kept it non personal. Thanks for disregarding that. Don't mistake self deprectating humor for ignorance, my friends. As to falling for ruses and being simple? Where in the hell is that coming from? I really expect more from otherwise intelligent, engaged and honest members here.
Pat I read your first source and stand by my characterization of Zakarias. I'll take a look at the other and cook up some party line toeing for ya Rex.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by icenine

They have an op ed guy named Goldberg who takes the right wing view but I think he is there just to rustle up the crowd. A sort of in house troll as it were. I think his first name is Jonah something like that. A sort of Mezz lol...

Yes, it is Jonah. The worst thing about him is he's a "reformed" liberal. No zealot worse than a convert!

John