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  #31  
Old 07-14-2011, 03:09 PM
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flacaltenn flacaltenn is offline
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Here's the deal TyBrad.. I'm looking at this purely from the CONSUMER side, not thru your capable hands on the tiller of education. Not JUST as a consumer, since I'm FORCED to finance public education even if I choose to pay twice for my own kid's education. So as in the case of ALL publically financed ventures -- you're gonna have the whole spectrum of unwelcomed and unqualified meddling..

As a consumer (like the Atlanta lady I'm concerned about) I need more honesty from "the system". When the educators can honestly come to parents and say "your kid is so stone-dumb we can't help him/her without your involvement" -- THEN I'd be willing to let public auditing and testing slide. But the CONSUMERS need to be aware of the performance level of their kid's school in an HONEST and rational manner. Whether they have OPTIONS to fix anything is quite another matter.

If the very minimum of BASIC knowledge testing is that objectionable -- then your customers are gonna become naturally suspicious. Private schools have their own methods of this accountibility. Generally because of the students and the situation, failure is not an option. OR -- the school will ADMIT that they can't perform.. Maybe the parents even get a refund. No such option for those trapped in the hell holes I remember visiting as a young teen..

I want the parents who give a damn to be knowledgeable and forewarned. When they discover teachers CHEATING on the Nat. test -- the ones that care get very angry... And they no longer care if it's BUsh's fault or the Union's fault. They want it fixed.. THey want an out... I want them to have that..

Last edited by flacaltenn; 07-14-2011 at 03:15 PM.
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  #32  
Old 07-14-2011, 03:28 PM
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Let's see both mum and dad are working, generally get home about 7:00 - 7:30. PTA meeting started at 7:30 but someone has to feed the kids.

Teacher wants to see Johnnie's parents so they take off work - and get their pay docked.

Face it people we have one royally screwed up society, this is not the 50s when Father Knew Best and it isn;t Left to Beaver either. Greed is the name of the game and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

When I was still in the wrkforce I personally saw those ten hour days first hand. They could have gone to 8 hour days and hired one or two more people but it is easier to work your existing staff to the bone.
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  #33  
Old 07-14-2011, 06:57 PM
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Flac,
Here's the deal? Really?
I do not know wether we agree or disagree, or something of a blend here. I would agree that your youtube lady and other concerned parents need some sort of yardstick but the question for me is... how? And those assessments test regurgitative information anyway and tell little to nothing of an individual's ability to think, problem-solve, or to be a quality citizen in their future. With two or three benchmarking points in a 12 year academic career, how is it valid? And she will not get in-her-time-frame resolution for this problem.

Schools are expected to be social service centers anymore, along with academic and life skill responsibility in spite of the home situation in a great many cases. Can't do everything well, but that is the expectation.

Those unscheduled observation assessments I wrote previously about, in my world, would be a matter of public information and published on the school's website using some ranking system for all of the characteristics deemed important by administration and the board for parents to see and make decisions upon. Pay and employment status would rest squarely on these results. If you are effective in delivery and in planning, the rest is up to the student. You cannot hold a teacher or school accountable for a student's (or parent's) personal motivation, initiative, attendance, and all of the other things that would impact a course grade or a standardized test performance.

What would your utopian option(s) be for the woman? What is practical?

Tyler

Last edited by tybrad; 07-14-2011 at 07:22 PM. Reason: additions
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  #34  
Old 07-14-2011, 08:53 PM
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Be assured TyBrad -- I'm probably mostly on your side and hold your profession (gross misbehavors excepted) in the highest regard. I've had a wonderful science/engineering career largely due to my H.S. Physics teacher. And I'm not defending ANYTHING that the Feds impose on the system. It's sheer distractive meddling for the most part.

But where we strongly disagree here is on the expectation that 8th graders OUGHT to be able to ACE what is on the NAEP tests WITHOUT all this fuss and preparation.

Quote:
And those assessments test regurgitative information anyway and tell little to nothing of an individual's ability to think, problem-solve, or to be a quality citizen in their future.
Facts and logic and reason are the very foundation of problem-solving. Knowing how to find an area, read a graph, calculate basic probabilities, THAT's what you'll find on the 8th grade math NAEP.. I've taken samples of the NAEP a couple times. Once back in '04 or so when the appalling results were published and just recently for this thread. I can find no excuse for the abysmal scores that have been attained nation-wide. Other than perhaps individual evaluation and testing as a whole has been abandoned in terms of
"group projects" , "group homework" and "group grades" -- which is what I observed from own public school kids..

http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/mat...#tabsContainer

Show me ANYTHING on that test that justifies the massive resistance on the part of teachers to allow this metric to be used -- JUST FOR A BENCHMARK. Maybe not for teacher merit pay or school closings UNLESS the temporal series of testing is somehow construed to indicate progress.

Surprise teacher observations might work, i'm worried about statistics there. A single audited class ain't fair. Catching the teacher with her/his "dumb hour" class wouldn't be fair.. I'm worried about the "sampling method"..

As far as the woman in Atlanta - a crime was committed. People should face consequences. In the business world it would be fraud, maybe breach of contract. Because as I understand it -- her kid(s) would have been eligible for remedial tutoring if they had failed the test. So if a teacher "patches up" the answers to make them look better -- the kid was essentially robbed in the process. But nothing will happen.. Because the woman has NO choice.
No appeal. No customer service division at the atlanta public ed..
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  #35  
Old 07-15-2011, 12:15 AM
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At the moment......I'm glad I have no kids.

Dave
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  #36  
Old 07-15-2011, 07:23 AM
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I am in agreement with you that group work is overdone. The flavor-of-the-day thinking was to model the workplace where collaboration is the key. This is a 90's baby and individual achievement and accountability has fallen because of it and too many teachers will give the same grade to all members the group. Collaborative work is important, but my students know that I'm watching, looking, and listening and that there will rarely be identical grades. It is a cheat for lazy teachers in my opinion, and will be taken advantage of.

I do not resist some sort of public accountability, but there are a few things to consider.

1. Do it so that the analysis is not stilted for anyone or anything but student gain. There are way too many adult agendas going on so that this is not really achievable.

2. It can never be fair to everyone. Different cultures, different preparations, different out-of-school support structures, etc. That's the art of trying to write a test. And which subjects? Why Biology and not Chemistry? Why Algebra? Most will never use it again in their lifetime for christ's sake.

3. Set it up by educators who have been teaching and managing in a current generation's classroom- not one from 20 years in their past, if even at all. Politicians and most administrators- keep your noses out of it! You have no grounding in reality. This is tried, but then political harpies and barrister-types swoop in so that the implementation is sloppy, not well thought-out, and will not stand the test of time. The perfect example is NCLB; a decades old idea that politicians and lawyers began fiddling with. Who doesn't want an NCLB idea to work? But it can't. What you end up with is band aids, open sores, redundancy, work-arounds, taken over schools (with what remedial result?), resentment and apathy. When you are told that you cannot do your job without outsiders controlling the marionette, it just follows- regardless of profession. And why ANYONE would want to enter into special education is beyond me!

I'll tell ya; people better stop playing the one-upsmanship/dominance game that goes on with education and educators. There is a content shortage as it is in some areas, and pre-service students see all of the hours, agendas, legalities, nonsense, and pittance of a pay scale. It's just not worth the hassle for many potentially great ones who either never enter, or are out within 3 yrs. Then what? There is no other profession that ends up with a lower hourly pay than there is in K-12. But the populace knows better. They ALWAYS know better, no?

This is in NO way condoning the cheating scandals that go on around the country, and there does need to be criminal pursuits taken in Atlanta. But that still does nothing for your youtube mother.

Last edited by tybrad; 07-15-2011 at 07:49 AM.
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  #37  
Old 07-15-2011, 07:47 AM
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The brain drain is nothing new, I entered the school system in 1935, this was allowed as my fifth birthday was in December of that year. One room schoolhouse with a lady teacher, Miss Rae. By 1939 and the outbreak of WW II she left for private industry.
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  #38  
Old 07-15-2011, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merrylander View Post
The brain drain is nothing new, I entered the school system in 1935, this was allowed as my fifth birthday was in December of that year. One room schoolhouse with a lady teacher, Miss Rae. By 1939 and the outbreak of WW II she left for private industry.
My two favorite teachers, were Mr. Jim Stacciotti and Mrs. Eleanor Bobbey. The Mr. Stac is now on my FaceBook friends list and I still love talking to him, (He still calls me Mr. Read.). Mrs. Bobbey passed away about 15 years ago. Wonderful people. I was a total screw up before I met them, now I'm just a partial screw up.

"Mister Read, people will denigrate, lionize, defame and even deify historical figures to achieve strictly political goals. Never lose sight of the fact that all of these people, from George Washington, to John L. Lewis, to JP Morgan and JFK were as capable of fallacy as they were of great things. They were after all, only human."

Sound familiar?

Dave
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  #39  
Old 07-15-2011, 01:02 PM
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flacaltenn flacaltenn is offline
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TyBrad:

Love this conversion.. We agree on how many gimmicks and fads and "marketing" hypes have been foisted (primarily) on public education. I used to get furious in Calif when elementary schools were turned into "journalism magnets" or "environmental magnets". And the disdain that I felt for friends who signed their 10 year old up for "Chinese immersion school" or what I called the "gradeless hippy school".

One thing from a previous post of yours about the expectation to fix all the peripheral problem social/economic/family problems before you can do the job you were hired to do... This seems to only be a fixation in the Public Schools because of the lottery draw of students in the system. The fact that the stupid-ass politicians expect YOU to perform miracles is somewhat of a UNIQUE burden for PUBLIC schools and needs a reality check. I wouldn't pretend that I'm capable of addressing such a monumental departure from my interests or training in my profession. Perhaps a little honesty from the Public School hierarchy is in order. Such as my suggestion to tell parents that their kids are not gonna succeed without other interventions. Don't pretend the problems are handled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tybrad View Post
I am in agreement with you that group work is overdone. The flavor-of-the-day thinking was to model the workplace where collaboration is the key. This is a 90's baby and individual achievement and accountability has fallen because of it and too many teachers will give the same grade to all members the group. Collaborative work is important, but my students know that I'm watching, looking, and listening and that there will rarely be identical grades. It is a cheat for lazy teachers in my opinion, and will be taken advantage of.

The fact that these fads come and go is exactly WHY parents and consumers of public education "can't keep their noses out of it" TyBrad --my wife and I have repeatably BOTH been asked by friends to tutor their high school kids in math and try to overcome the damage that has been done with "new math" and "estimation math" and "14 ways to multiply" math. Scholarly intentions can ruin a decade full of students who were never taught the ONE WAY to multiply that always works!! I'm seen modern math techniques turn bright students in weeping intimidated hulks. Because the teacher would admonish them with crap like "i told you to estimate to 3 digits even if the third is the fractional part of 20.5 Billion!! (Duhhhh -- how many digits is that? What problem was I solving here?)

I do not resist some sort of public accountability, but there are a few things to consider.

1. Do it so that the analysis is not stilted for anyone or anything but student gain. There are way too many adult agendas going on so that this is not really achievable. Yup!

2. It can never be fair to everyone. Different cultures, different preparations, different out-of-school support structures, etc. That's the art of trying to write a test. And which subjects? Why Biology and not Chemistry? Why Algebra? Most will never use it again in their lifetime for christ's sake.

I think because the expectation is that students will achieve a uniform MINIMUM proficiency in K-12 for Reading, Writing, Math, and Social Studies. That's the customer expectation. If this doesn't match the goals set by the curriculum and teachers -- it ought to openly discussed and the expectation needs to be adjusted. I never had a reason to appreciate early English Lit or Art History or any number of "squirm thru" classes in High School.

Cultures? Preparations? Doesn't apply to the NAEP-type tests. If you're telling me that it has to presented in Ghetto-American English, I don't buy that. If the kids are not proficient in English because of a 2nd language, make a note on the result. The fact that they can't tell us which European country came to our aid in the Revolutionary War (multiple choice) is a problem that transcends all that.


3. Set it up by educators who have been teaching and managing in a current generation's classroom- not one from 20 years in their past, if even at all. Politicians and most administrators- keep your noses out of it! You have no grounding in reality. This is tried, but then political harpies and barrister-types swoop in so that the implementation is sloppy, not well thought-out, and will not stand the test of time. The perfect example is NCLB; a decades old idea that politicians and lawyers began fiddling with. Who doesn't want an NCLB idea to work? But it can't. What you end up with is band aids, open sores, redundancy, work-arounds, taken over schools (with what remedial result?), resentment and apathy. When you are told that you cannot do your job without outsiders controlling the marionette, it just follows- regardless of profession. And why ANYONE would want to enter into special education is beyond me!

I'm in the stupid position of DEFENDING a Fed National Standards test. If you've read any of my views on Federalism on this board, you must know how pained I am to do that!! On one level -- there's the gimmicks and marketing that we agree should go away. But at the next level, there is the "standard" curriculum that obviously serves a purpose to qualify a High School diploma as meaningful and certify that the kids are ready to be molded and injected with College content. While there are political battles on the MICRO scale over curriculum content, the MACRO scale that the NAEP should measure are pretty much undisputed. (correct me if I'm wrong here and also correct the expectations of the parents and taxpayers)

When the states alone were determining standard content -- they were already cooking the accountibility books and getting dismal results. That gave Jabba the Fed the excuse to sit on them with it's gynormous 12% funding contribution. And we're STILL arguing about "standard curriculum" and expectations. And we STILL don't have relief for the parents who care.

PS: I've even heard professional educators whine about the fact that PRIVATE schools aren't required to participate in NAEP or NCLB. It either IS useful and perhaps consumers should DEMAND the same accountibility from Private schools -- or it isn't.. Private schools don't have the same accountibility problems as the public schools do because there is choice and contracts involved. And misrepresenting student performance is generally not tolerated. (that's likely to heat your collar -- but that's the common customer viewpoint)


I'll tell ya; people better stop playing the one-upsmanship/dominance game that goes on with education and educators. There is a content shortage as it is in some areas, and pre-service students see all of the hours, agendas, legalities, nonsense, and pittance of a pay scale. It's just not worth the hassle for many potentially great ones who either never enter, or are out within 3 yrs. Then what? There is no other profession that ends up with a lower hourly pay than there is in K-12. But the populace knows better. They ALWAYS know better, no?

This is in NO way condoning the cheating scandals that go on around the country, and there does need to be criminal pursuits taken in Atlanta. But that still does nothing for your youtube mother.
I really do understand the frustration. And you should know that I understand the game is rigged. But the education establishment needs to own up to some of gimmicks and experiments (like the group assignments and math follies and political indoctrination disguised as knowledge and false labeling of special ed cases) and start to LEVEL with the public. The PUBLIC schools are where education has gone off the rails because of the luck of the student draw. We need to figure out how to REALLY serve the lower quintiles while not HOBBLING the upper quintiles. And I don't see that kind of innovation and honesty being presented by the profession. (less union resistance to things like virtual and self-paced learning for instance).

Hell, I'm a libertarian and could say -- let's just do vouchers. Give that Atlanta lady some choices. That would be the traditional political cop-out for me. But I really do want to see some form of success in the lower quintiles (just not to detriment of the rest). I believe in the capability for that to happen. And I hope -- so do your fellow teachers..

All that public meddling is BECAUSE you work in Public system that ISN'T just about education.. One of those "socialist" conundrums -- I guess.

Last edited by flacaltenn; 07-15-2011 at 01:19 PM.
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  #40  
Old 07-15-2011, 01:16 PM
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Vouchers.

And talk about lowest denominator, pick up a school history book and give it a once over occasionally.

Pete
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