Another Mass Shooting, This Time It's a Newspaper in Annapolis

[ebacon]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

EB, you may be overthinking things a bit.

There are very few REAL arguments. Individual vs. community, which in more abstract words is selfishness vs altruism. 'Let's try this new thing' vs. 'let's honor the old ways.' A few others. These arguments will never be settled, and indeed, should not be. The answer to all the propositions is 'sometimes.'

Many people are easily persuaded to fear. Uses have been found for that. These represent the 'less real' arguments I implied existed, above.

donquixote99,

I do not know where you live. I live in southeastern Michigan -- smack in the middle of the rust belt. The politicians in my area seem to talk about road repair during every election. I am tired of hearing it since 1980, which is when I landed here.

I agree with you that there are very few real arguments. In my area the road issue is a prime example. In the context of individual vs. community as an abstraction of selfishness vs altruism, roads provide us with an outlet for us to escape the confines of our communities and intermingle with the individuals of other nearby communities. The intermingling can be through social constructs such as corporate work and private play. But in the middle of that, the roads need to be enjoyable, they need to be beautiful, for us to actually maintain them. The evidence for me that we have ugly roads lies in our willingness to abandon structures that abut them and search for happiness in greener pastures. In Michigan we use the phrase "going up North" to express our need to get away from our ugly roads.

That's not to say that all of our roads are ugly. There are a few that are pleasant to drive. One example is Pontiac Lake Road which is curvy and I learned follows an old Indian footpath. It also happens to be in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods of the state.

To come back to your point of 'Let's try this new thing' vs. 'let's honor the old ways.' and a few others should never be settled, I also agree with that. It is normal in the human experience to try and alter our environments. I think that particular emotion is what permits the book "Who Moved My Cheese" to rise to popularity. It reminds us of the industriousness of the beaver, which is what the old Indian trails around here had to weave through, vs. human ability to construct orthogonal mazes and f*ck with each other like vermin of NIMH.

Perhaps where I starkly disagree with you, because I do as a recovered muddler, is in the degree of error that think-tankers and their associated media outlets should let accumulate before they check themselves and realize that they are failing a laugh test of the first amendment. The proof is they are persuading voters and politicians to build and maintain things that are ugly. The one percent is making work instead of making sense.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I will tell the seed of my emotion one more time. I was walking through Regensburg, Germany, with a colleague. She told me that walking on those roads made her want to hold her man's hand while walking her dogs. No roads in SE Michigan inspire such beautiful emotion. Up North? Maybe.

The error of form has grown too large for the first amendment to support, ergo muddling is unacceptable here at the moment. We need politicians to understand art.

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by ebacon

You did not make an assertion of causation because you know that you and your ilk are the cause. You are hiding like a rich giggling coward. I have been in the shooter's shoes since you all have purported to like me. The difference between me and the shooter is that I fight with words.

The outrage industry is real. You know it and I have learned it. What I do not understand is what good you want to come of your industrialized persuasion. What do you want? What is your goal?

"Ilk"? "Giggling coward"? What the hell are you on about?

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by ebacon

donquixote99,

I do not know where you live. I live in southeastern Michigan -- smack in the middle of the rust belt. The politicians in my area seem to talk about road repair during every election. I am tired of hearing it since 1980, which is when I landed here.

I agree with you that there are very few real arguments. In my area the road issue is a prime example. In the context of individual vs. community as an abstraction of selfishness vs altruism, roads provide us with an outlet for us to escape the confines of our communities and intermingle with the individuals of other nearby communities. The intermingling can be through social constructs such as corporate work and private play. But in the middle of that, the roads need to be enjoyable, they need to be beautiful, for us to actually maintain them. The evidence for me that we have ugly roads lies in our willingness to abandon structures that abut them and search for happiness in greener pastures. In Michigan we use the phrase "going up North" to express our need to get away from our ugly roads.

That's not to say that all of our roads are ugly. There are a few that are pleasant to drive. One example is Pontiac Lake Road which is curvy and I learned follows an old Indian footpath. It also happens to be in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods of the state.

To come back to your point of 'Let's try this new thing' vs. 'let's honor the old ways.' and a few others should never be settled, I also agree with that. It is normal in the human experience to try and alter our environments. I think that particular emotion is what permits the book "Who Moved My Cheese" to rise to popularity. It reminds us of the industriousness of the beaver, which is what the old Indian trails around here had to weave through, vs. human ability to construct orthogonal mazes and f*ck with each other like vermin of NIMH.

Perhaps where I starkly disagree with you, because I do as a recovered muddler, is in the degree of error that think-tankers and their associated media outlets should let accumulate before they check themselves and realize that they are failing a laugh test of the first amendment. The proof is they are persuading voters and politicians to build and maintain things that are ugly. The one percent is making work instead of making sense.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I will tell the seed of my emotion one more time. I was walking through Regensburg, Germany, with a colleague. She told me that walking on those roads made her want to hold her man's hand while walking her dogs. No roads in SE Michigan inspire such beautiful emotion. Up North? Maybe.

The error of form has grown too large for the first amendment to support, ergo muddling is unacceptable here at the moment. We need politicians to understand art.

I live in southwestern Ohio, around or in Dayton mostly, though I'm now in the process of moving to Cincinnati (a very nice life transition is happening). Dayton has been a little Detroit, abandoned by GM and DELCO and NCR. The devastation was no where near as widespread as in Detroit, though, measurable in acreage, not square miles. The city has muddled well, as muddling goes.

Perhaps we should expand on the meaning of this term 'muddling.' I would call it 'working the system,' with the system being a starkly limited and inefficient thing, rife with burdensome baggage, haphazard structure, and moral compromise of all sorts. I can see you being disgusted by it, but many participants mean well and plug away at trying to make the best possible outcomes in the limited spheres in with they operate. Others, to be sure, do not.

Disgust, disdain, and conviction that you are hearing the 'enemy' is an understandable reaction when listening to the self-serving BS of vote-seekers. Neither Finn nor I fall into that category, however, so I don't think we deserve quite to be thought of as 'ilks' or giggling anythings. The outrage industry you speak of has many faces, some of with speak to you, I fear.

[ebacon]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

I live in southwestern Ohio, around or in Dayton mostly, though I'm now in the process of moving to Cincinnati (a very nice life transition is happening). Dayton has been a little Detroit, abandoned by GM and DELCO and NCR. The devastation was no where near as widespread as in Detroit, though, measurable in acreage, not square miles. The city has muddled well, as muddling goes.

Perhaps we should expand on the meaning of this term 'muddling.' I would call it 'working the system,' with the system being a starkly limited and inefficient thing, rife with burdensome baggage, haphazard structure, and moral compromise of all sorts. I can see you being disgusted by it, but many participants mean well and plug away at trying to make the best possible outcomes in the limited spheres in with they operate. Others, to be sure, do not.

Disgust, disdain, and conviction that you are hearing the 'enemy' is an understandable reaction when listening to the self-serving BS of vote-seekers. Neither Finn nor I fall into that category, however, so I don't think we deserve quite to be thought of as 'ilks' or giggling anythings. The outrage industry you speak of has many faces, some of with speak to you, I fear.

I think you and I have an agreeable definition of "muddling". Perhaps what I need to clarify is what kind of neighborhoods and city designs precipitate out of the solution of popular muddling versus what precipitates out of a solution that is seeded with roundly educated leadership.

Do you get what I'm beginning to put effort into? Popular muddling is rooted in mathematical Cartersian thought. Global muddling, let's say muddling that results in beautiful European villages that have survived 500 years, seems to be rooted in a more ancient notion of the preservation of the body politic. The notion of the body politic goes back 2000 years to the Greeks and Romans.

American governance, being only 240ish years old, is still trying to digest the amusement park popularity of Cartesian muddling vs. the rounded muddling of Aristotle and Cicero.

I dunno. All I know is that I wish the media and think tanks did a better job of persuading American populace to build things that we want to maintain.

[ebacon]

Originally Posted by bobabode

"Ilk"? "Giggling coward"? What the hell are you on about?

:P

Divide by zero error on a big data scale.

[Dondilion]

Originally Posted by ebacon

donquixote99,

I do not know where you live. I live in southeastern Michigan -- smack in the middle of the rust belt. The politicians in my area seem to talk about road repair during every election. I am tired of hearing it since 1980, which is when I landed here.

I agree with you that there are very few real arguments. In my area the road issue is a prime example. In the context of individual vs. community as an abstraction of selfishness vs altruism, roads provide us with an outlet for us to escape the confines of our communities and intermingle with the individuals of other nearby communities. The intermingling can be through social constructs such as corporate work and private play. But in the middle of that, the roads need to be enjoyable, they need to be beautiful, for us to actually maintain them. The evidence for me that we have ugly roads lies in our willingness to abandon structures that abut them and search for happiness in greener pastures. In Michigan we use the phrase "going up North" to express our need to get away from our ugly roads.

That's not to say that all of our roads are ugly. There are a few that are pleasant to drive. One example is Pontiac Lake Road which is curvy and I learned follows an old Indian footpath. It also happens to be in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods of the state.

To come back to your point of 'Let's try this new thing' vs. 'let's honor the old ways.' and a few others should never be settled, I also agree with that. It is normal in the human experience to try and alter our environments. I think that particular emotion is what permits the book "Who Moved My Cheese" to rise to popularity. It reminds us of the industriousness of the beaver, which is what the old Indian trails around here had to weave through, vs. human ability to construct orthogonal mazes and f*ck with each other like vermin of NIMH.

Perhaps where I starkly disagree with you, because I do as a recovered muddler, is in the degree of error that think-tankers and their associated media outlets should let accumulate before they check themselves and realize that they are failing a laugh test of the first amendment. The proof is they are persuading voters and politicians to build and maintain things that are ugly. The one percent is making work instead of making sense.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I will tell the seed of my emotion one more time. I was walking through Regensburg, Germany, with a colleague. She told me that walking on those roads made her want to hold her man's hand while walking her dogs. No roads in SE Michigan inspire such beautiful emotion. Up North? Maybe.

The error of form has grown too large for the first amendment to support, ergo muddling is unacceptable here at the moment. We need politicians to understand art.

Making fresh flowers a significant part of one's personal space often alleviates whatever ails.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I did neither, nor did I make an assertion of causation. All I said was that Trump (and you as a Trump cultist/sycophant/apologist) should be pleased by the death of such frequently-vilified "enemies of the people," just as Americans were pleased by the death of Osama bin Laden.

Finn - keep stuffing the straw in that straw man. I think its the only thing that makes you feel good these days.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

Finn - keep stuffing the straw in that straw man. I think its the only thing that makes you feel good these days.

It is not a straw man to assert that Trump has frequently vilified the press as "enemies of the people" (words lifted from Stalin). Is it really a stretch to say that Trump would be displeased by his enemy, the free press, being harmed when he tweeted a video of himself body-slamming a CNN reporter? Keep defending the indefensible, Whell. That's what you do.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

Finn - keep stuffing the straw in that straw man. I think its the only thing that makes you feel good these days.

Your Dear Leader today on journalists, a week after the murder of five of them:
"I see the way they write. They're so damn dishonest. And I don't mean all of them, because some of the finest people I know are journalists really. Hard to believe when I say that. I hate to say it, but I have to say it. But 75 percent of those people are downright dishonest. Downright dishonest. They're fake. They're fake. They make the sources up. They don't exist in many cases. These are really bad people."

[donquixote99]

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Trump's 75%, above, falls in the 'damned lies' category, since he just made it up, and it slanders good people.

There's bitter irony in such a moment, when such a damned lie has just left your mouth, in calling others 'dishonest' and 'really bad people.'