Nfl ?

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

You keep going in circles. I've already stated that no one disagrees with the players having a "right to protest". I've said that its the time and the place they're choosing to protest that fans have a disagreement with.

Trump's cynical effort to hijack Kaepernick's message and morph it into a wedge issue worked perfectly on you. Kap and his kneeling colleagues picked the time and place to maximize eyeballs on their issue and knelt silently and legally (and kneeling is universally considered a gesture of reverence).

Your complaint rings like "Those uppity ni....rs should know their place" and shouldn't do anything that upsets white people's sensibilities when they protest racial injustice (as well as our Bigot-in-Chief's threatening and cynical comments). I guess you think they should protest at a time and in a place that will protect white folks from having to hear their message.

So, it's OK for GOP Congresscritters to take a moment of silence as their sole response to the Las Vegas massacre (instead of having a needed debate on gun laws), but it's not OK for black athletes to take a moment of silence to protest racial injustice (while the very same Congress fails to take necessary action on criminal justice reform)? It seems to me that the black athletes are the brave, patriotic ones and your GOP Congresscritters are the cowards.

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by whell

http://nypost.com/2017/10/01/ravens-...hem-statement/

Before the Ravens hosted the Steelers on Sunday, the Baltimore team stepped to the sideline and took a knee as the PA announcer asked the stadium to take a moment “to pray that we as a nation embrace kindness, unity, equality and justice for all Americans.”

The fans poured boos down upon their favorite players, about to face off against the team’s blood rivals, as they knelt for the moment in prayer. The Ravens then rose as one and stood for the anthem.

Fans just want to go to a game - be it football, baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer, whatever - to be entertained, and they paid a lot for it (tickets, parking, concessions, etc.). The last thing that fans want is a dose of politics with their choice of entertainment. They come to sporting events or other entertainment venues to get away from their day to day experience, including political BS.

And, I know this may shock some of you, but some folks actually enjoy the tradition of the national anthem at the start of sporting events.

But the political messages inherent in conducting a military salute during each game(followed by that pathetic Lee Greenwood song), playing the national anthems a the games, and singing God Bless America at the 7th Inning stretch are all fine and dandy?

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by d-ray657

But the political messages inherent in conducting a military salute during each game(followed by that pathetic Lee Greenwood song), playing the national anthems a the games, and singing God Bless America at the 7th Inning stretch are all fine and dandy?

Of course. White people are comfortable with gratuitous displays of patriotism, but can't stand "ungrateful" blacks who may see things differently and choose to silently express it. It challenges their beliefs in American Exceptionalism, not to mention their easy-chair patriotism.

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Of course. White people are comfortable with gratuitous displays of patriotism, but can't stand "ungrateful" blacks who may see things differently and choose to silently express it. It contradicts their "America is exceptional and perfect" hagiography.

One man's patriotism is another man's jingoism.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Trump's cynical effort to hijack Kaepernick's message and morph it into a wedge issue worked perfectly on you. Kap and his kneeling colleagues picked the time and place to maximize eyeballs on their issue and knelt silently and legally (and kneeling is universally considered a gesture of reverence).

Your complaint rings like "Those uppity ni....rs should know their place" and shouldn't do anything that upsets white people's sensibilities when they protest racial injustice (as well as our Bigot-in-Chief's threatening and cynical comments). I guess you think they should protest at a time and in a place that will protect white folks from having to hear their message.

So, it's OK for GOP Congresscritters to take a moment of silence as their sole response to the Las Vegas massacre (instead of having a needed debate on gun laws), but it's not OK for black athletes to take a moment of silence to protest racial injustice (while the very same Congress fails to take necessary action on criminal justice reform)? It seems to me that the black athletes are the brave, patriotic ones and your GOP Congresscritters are the cowards.

There you go again, trying putting words in my mouth. Please keep your hate to yourself.

Sure, "Kap and his kneeling colleagues" picked their place of work - certainly during a time when the TV cameras would be on - do make their statement. You think that is just a fine time and place to do it. Let's stipulate that for a minute, for the sake of discussion.

Now, since you like to put words in other folks mouths, I'll return the favor:

So, you think its OK for a person to engage in free speech any time, any place, anywhere? You think its just fine to dispense with any and all time, manner and place restrictions on speech? "Kap and his kneeling colleagues" should be able to take a knee between plays on the field if they think that's the right time to stage a protest? Lots of eyes would be on them for sure. You think they should take a knee in the parking lot driveway after the game while folks are trying to exit the stadium if they think that's the right time and place to stage a protest? They'd get plenty of eyes, and probably quite a few middle fingers, in both cases.

You want to keep making this a matter of race. Its ain't. Its about the right time and the wrong time to vent your spleen, and "Kap and his kneeling colleagues" have it wrong.

And I also have to say that you trying to draw some kind of screwy moral equivalence between folks taking a moment of silence for those innocents shot dead in Vegas and the deeds of Kap and his kneeling colleagues" is really sick shit. You apparently lack any degree of proportion, respect, understanding and compassion for those who were killed.

You can keep going in circles with me on this and try to put more words in my mouth if you want, but you'll keep getting the same consistent answer.

[whell]

Originally Posted by d-ray657

But the political messages inherent in conducting a military salute during each game(followed by that pathetic Lee Greenwood song), playing the national anthems a the games, and singing God Bless America at the 7th Inning stretch are all fine and dandy?

Yup, because those activities have long since become tradition, and have certainly been organized and sanctioned by the league(s) for many, many years. At least at one time, folks used to think stuff like playing the national anthem was OK. Those of you who hate stuff like that - who apparently aren't "Proud to be an American" as Mr Greenwood observes and which you label as pathetic - at least know its coming before you buy your tickets.

[whell]

Originally Posted by d-ray657

One man's patriotism is another man's jingoism.

One man's observation and respect for tradition or sanctioned events and activities at entertainment events is another man's angst. Pretty sad if you ask me.

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by whell

Yup, because those activities have long since become tradition, and have certainly been organized and sanctioned by the league(s) for many, many years. At least at one time, folks used to think stuff like playing the national anthem was OK. Those of you who hate stuff like that - who apparently aren't "Proud to be an American" as Mr Greenwood observes and which you label as pathetic - at least know its coming before you buy your tickets.

For one who opposes others putting words in one's mouth, your are certainly keen on the practice. There is nothing wrong with being proud to be an American. Indeed, being proud of one's country is not inconsistent with wanting to improve it. However, combining a terrible country song with a celebration of militarism is more of a display of jingoism than patriotism.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by whell

So, you think its OK for a person to engage in free speech any time, any place, anywhere? You think its just fine to dispense with any and all time, manner and place restrictions on speech? "Kap and his kneeling colleagues" should be able to take a knee between plays on the field if they think that's the right time to stage a protest?
You want to keep making this a matter of race. Its ain't. Its about the right time and the wrong time to vent your spleen, and "Kap and his kneeling colleagues" have it wrong.

The ridiculous Whell strawman lives. If players took a knee in the midst of play, their teammates and owners would mete out appropriate disapproval and punishment. They took a knee before the game with the apparent approval of teammates and ownership to first protest racial injustice and then Trump's cynical hijacking of the issue in Huntsville. Big difference. In any event, it's none of Trump's business and a president telling a business owner who to fire/punish is simply out of bounds.

And I also have to say that you trying to draw some kind of screwy moral equivalence between folks taking a moment of silence for those innocents shot dead in Vegas and the deeds of Kap and his kneeling colleagues" is really sick shit. You apparently lack any degree of proportion, respect, understanding and compassion for those who were killed.

You're gonna have a hard time convincing me that Trump and Republicans care about the dead in Vegas as they reflexively dodge any and all questions or actions about reasonable (and legal) gun control supported by an overwhelming majority of Americans. And yes, this is about race. Trump hijacked a protest about racial injustice and morphed it into an issue of the flag and the anthem (after having equivocated on the KKK and NeoNazis). You probably believe that the march over the Edmund Pettus bridge in Selma was a protest against bridges.

[whell]

Originally Posted by finnbow

The ridiculous Whell strawman lives. If players took a knee in the midst of play, their teammates and owners would mete out appropriate disapproval and punishment. They took a knee before the game with the apparent approval of teammates and ownership to first protest racial injustice and then Trump's cynical hijacking of the issue in Huntsville. Big difference. In any event, it's none of Trump's business and a president telling a business owner who to fire/punish is simply out of bounds.

No, there's no difference, accept the owners and the league mistakenly have chosen to tolerate this behavior. They've done so at the expense of their fans, and have reaped the media firestorm that has followed. If Jed York had pulled Kap aside and directed him to stop making political displays in his workplace when this first started, you'd probably still have some liberals screaming about York's denial of "free speech" and racism". But they'd be just as wring them as they (you) are now.

Originally Posted by finnbow

You're gonna have a hard time convincing me that Trump and Republicans care about the dead in Vegas as they reflexively dodge any and all questions or actions about reasonable (and legal) gun control supported by an overwhelming majority of Americans. And yes, this is about race. Trump hijacked a protest about racial injustice and morphed it into an issue of the flag and the anthem (after having equivocated on the KKK and NeoNazis). You probably believe that the march over the Edmund Pettus bridge in Selma was a protest against bridges.

You won't have a hard time convincing me that that you're a heartless bastard as you continue to politicize Vegas and continue your flawed and cynical comparison.