Mid East policy speech

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

When you just blurt out "pre- 1967 borders" ..

I know of no high level US diplomat that ever "just blurted it out."

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

FinnBow:



I got friends that I work with in Tel Aviv. They said it tears their hearts out to see Pali moms stopped at the border with children who need hospital. In the times BEFORE the intifada, MOST Palis worked in Israel and had quick access to medical care even schools. The hostilities end all those reciprocations.

Anyway -- after they vent about misery caused by isolating the Palis -- they always remind me....

If all that Arab moolah that funds the intifada and those damned to hell muslim "schools" that turn out little rock-throwing, hating, know-nothings -- if all that money went to building a Pali Hospital or a real University -- there might be hope...

That pretty much jives with my conflicted view of the whole thing. Palestinian leadership has been catastrophically bad (I guess that's no different than any other Arab land).

I guess what turned my head around was driving around Israel and the West Bank in ~1983 and experiencing what was going on at the numerous roadblocks out in the desert. A number of the Israeli soldiers manning the checkpoints seemed to go out of their way to humiliate the Palis, to include old women. They'd make them get out of their cars and stand in the hot sun simply because they could (or at least that's how I saw it - many times, in fact). Whether we like it or not, humiliation at the hands of an occupying force rarely builds goodwill.

I loved my 2 week visit to Israel. When asked about the most interesting places in my travels to over 50 countries, Jerusalem is always at the top of the list - an absolutely incredible place.

That said, it left me with a certain ill-at-ease feeling about the whole situation there. It ain't nearly as simple or one-sided as our media or politicians would have us believe. Blind adherance to the Likud POV (required here of Americans, not there of Israelis ) doesn't exactly represent the truth as I saw it.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

You're not shooting rockets into Chicago or sending suicide bombers into DC?

How is that any different than laying siege to Detroit? Our (eastern Native Americans) issue is that we required the French to hold it and "win." (They bailed.)

But, hey, we were God's chosen people, thought we had a big dog in the fight on our side, got uppity and overextended, then the Big Dog bailed and we got it -- metaphorical double entendre intended -- "in the end." (Sound like Israel, minus the potential endgame?)

As a sweeping generalization, I believe that Israel brings a lot of stuff on themselves because they have had our (the United States') unilateral backing along with an ongoing sense of entitlement. (I, also, believe that many Native American tribes would have wound up with a better deal if they had put their energy into things other than sacking major cities: but that's neither here nor there...)

Yes, Native Americans got screwed in some negotiations, but that's why you negotiate from STRENGTH as opposed to AFTER the Big Dog bails as -- like the French -- many Americans are now interested in doing in the Middle East.

It is what it is.

[flacaltenn]

FinnBow:

A number of the Israeli soldiers manning the checkpoints seemed to go out of their way to humiliate the Palis, to include old women. They'd make them get out of their cars and stand in the hot sun simply because they could

And this is different from the TSA How????
Oh -- TSA only does it to our OWN old women and children... That's much better..

Oh well -- we fixed that one buddy..

I agree about Jerusalem.. We were wandering in places we probably shouldn't have been. My buddy and I are in the narrow long alleyway when Arab kids got out of school. We were pinned to the wall for a 1/2 hour and got our feet stomped by a couple donkeys that could barely fit thru the alley.

Rush hour like in the days of Jesus.. You can have Starbucks or get your coffee fixed off the back of a streetcart..

[piece-itpete]

Originally Posted by Zeke

How is that any different than laying siege to Detroit? Our (eastern Native Americans) issue is that we required the French to hold it and "win." (They bailed.)

But, hey, we were God's chosen people, thought we had a big dog in the fight on our side, got uppity and overextended, then the Big Dog bailed and we got it -- metaphorical double entendre intended -- "in the end." (Sound like Israel, minus the potential endgame?)

As a sweeping generalization, I believe that Israel brings a lot of stuff on themselves because they have had our (the United States') unilateral backing along with an ongoing sense of entitlement. (I, also, believe that many Native American tribes would have wound up with a better deal if they had put their energy into things other than sacking major cities: but that's neither here nor there...)

Yes, Native Americans got screwed in some negotiations, but that's why you negotiate from STRENGTH as opposed to AFTER the Big Dog bails as -- like the French -- many Americans are now interested in doing in the Middle East.

It is what it is.

Heck the US isn't leaving Israels side anytime soon!

The Indians sure got the short end of the stick. Our dealings with them are a definate low point, shameful. I find it interesting that part of our trouble with England is that they were trying to protect them from encroachement by the colonials.

I think a good question is, why didn't we have trouble with Nazis in occupied Germany, or Japan, heck the South after the civil war? It's brutal, but effective. The States in the ME attacked Israel - and lost.

Then and now they are using the poor Palestinians for their own purposes. They should look after the log in their own eye.

Pete

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

I think a good question is, why didn't we have trouble with Nazis in occupied Germany ...

I wonder if it would have been different if the UN had given the Jewish people a country comprised of the state of Schleswig-Holstein in northern Germany rather than plopping them down in the heart of the Mideast.

[piece-itpete]

It would have been fitting for sure.

Pete

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

It would have been fitting for sure.

Pete

I think this is part of the genesis of the whole Israel/Palestine thing. Rightly or wrongly (mostly rightly, I think), the Arabs in general, and the Palestinians in particular, feel that they've simply been treated as pawns in the power games of the colonial powers.

I mean, really. The Germans perpetrate a genocide of epic proportions (both in numbers and methods) and the Jews are awarded a state on a different continent as war reparations. If your Palestinian family had been on that land for two millenia, you might think that was somehow unjust, methinks.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by finnbow

I think this is part of the genesis of the whole Israel/Palestine thing. Rightly or wrongly (mostly rightly, I think), the Arabs in general, and the Palestinians in particular, feel that they've simply been treated as pawns in the power games of the colonial powers.

and how could they feel differently?

[piece-itpete]

There is a serious fact overlooked here - they LOST. YEARS ago. Should we return the southwestern states to Mexico?

If the rockets would stop and they acted like responsible adults world opinion would force Israels hand.

Pete