Denny Crane and the Second Amendment

[soundhound]

Originally Posted by noonereal

There has not been one post in this thread that has offered any valid reason to continue to have weapons available to the general public.

there have been several valid reasons given:

1) personal defense
2) hunting
3) sport (target practice)

the forefathers included the 2nd ammendment, i think, because they wanted to be able to protect themselves against their own government. and there's not a chance in hell of anyone invading the united states as long as such a large portion of the population is armed.

i haven't seen one valid reason why guns should NOT be possessed by citizens.

[Charles]

The 2nd amendment is a constitutional right. Not a reason, a right.

Not to ruffle any feathers, but I've always been amazed at people who defend every right in the Bill of Rights, EXCEPT the 2nd. The 2nd amendment is the right which guarantees all the others.

Now I can understand how some folks are uncomfortable around firearms, or just don't like them at all. But don't be too quick about giving up yet another constitutional right.

Should we lose the 2nd amendment, the only people in possession of firearms with be the criminals, and the politicians. Does anyone really want to put themselves in this position?

Personally, I sleep better at night knowing that there are millions of good, decent Americans who bear arms. They won't rob me, or murder me, or grind me under the heel of their boot. And should anyone else try, I'm sure that a great deal of them would be there to help.

My 2 cents,
Chas

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Charles

The 2nd amendment is a constitutional right. Not a reason, a right.

Yes it is and we are discussing if it should be changed or not. it seems to me that change is healthy as that is the nature of life itself.

Originally Posted by Charles

The 2nd amendment is the right which guarantees all the others.

I don't follow, please elaborate.

Originally Posted by Charles

Now I can understand how some folks are uncomfortable around firearms, or just don't like them at all.

I think people are uncomfortable about the people who have them, not the weapon itself. The tough guy drunk, the mistaken property owner, the over protective brother the kid next door who's life is a sad almost certainty......

Originally Posted by Charles

Should we lose the 2nd amendment, the only people in possession of firearms with be the criminals, and the politicians.

You know this is a straw man but you posted it anyway so I have to call you out on it.

Originally Posted by Charles

Personally, I sleep better at night knowing that there are millions of good, decent Americans who bear arms. They won't rob me, or murder me, or grind me under the heel of their boot.

so would i , if that were the case, it's not.


I think an interesting discussion would be "what is a responsible gun owner?"



I'd like to add a footnote to this post, I was proof reading it before I posted it and I realized that I had mentioned many people that make me feel uncomfortable having guns but had failed to mention criminals. I found this interesting as with all the negative experience I have had with guns, I have never had any from a criminal. Of course I don't want criminals to have them and should have included them but isn't it interesting that when I have been threatened with a weapon it was good law abiding tax paying beer drinking regular stiffs that did it.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by noonereal

Yes it is and we are discussing if it should be changed or not. it seems to me that change is healthy as that is the nature of life itself.





I don't follow, please elaborate.



I think people are uncomfortable about the people who have them, not the weapon itself. The tough guy drunk, the mistaken property owner, the over protective brother the kid next door who's life is a sad almost certainty......



You know this is a straw man but you posted it anyway so I have to call you out on it.



so would i , if that were the case, it's not.


I think an interesting discussion would be "what is a responsible gun owner?"



I'd like to add a footnote to this post, I was proof reading it before I posted it and I realized that I had mentioned many people that make me feel uncomfortable having guns but had failed to mention criminals. I found this interesting as with all the negative experience I have had with guns, I have never had any from a criminal. Of course I don't want criminals to have them and should have included them but isn't it interesting that when I have been threatened with a weapon it was good law abiding tax paying beer drinking regular stiffs that did it.

Noonereal, who are you today? And thank you for holding me accountable, I need to be kept honest.

Anyway, heading West.

2nd Amendment is a right.

"The only thing constant is change", Aristotle. If we're going to change the constitution, let's do it by the book. There are provisions in the constitution for changing it. Don't ask me what they are, because I don't remember off hand, and I don't want to stop and research the subject, but I do know it's not an easy thing to do. Now activist judges who legislate form the bench, or politicians who pass mandates under the much maligned "Commerce Clause" is not my idea of "by the book".

2nd Amendment guarantees the others.

I would imagine that this is the reason the founding fathers inserted the 2nd amendment in the first place. Is it not easier to force your will on a person, or a group of people, if they are unarmed?

Uncomfortable around firearms.

I must admit, you have a point. When I'm uncomfortable around them, it's not the weapon, but the "nut behind the butt" that bothers me. I'll skip down to the "responsible" gun owner. They're the one's who can use a firearm in a manner which doesn't make me uncomfortable. Perhaps you've never met one, but I know of many.

Straw man.

Where is he? When I said "criminals and politicians", of course I may be repeating myself, but that is precisely what I meant. I don't wish to find myself in the position where they are holding ALL of the cards. Kind of like a poker game, if everyone else is cheating, why can't I have an ace up my sleeve? Or maybe a brace.

Sleep better.

Perhaps you take no comfort from living in an armed society, but I do. Since society is going to be armed, like it or not, I see nothing wrong with the "good guys" being armed also.

By the way, a "good guy" is the polar opposite of a "bad guy".

Footnote.

Now I can understand that your personal experiences have soured you on firearms. Were my experiences with firearms the same as yours, I would imagine that I would feel much the same.

But let's not be provincial in our thinking, firearms are used in the defense of life, limb, and property all of the time. There's plenty of evidence to support my claim.

By the way, what were the situations when these drunken stiffs pulled a gun on you? I've never had this happen to me.

But I'm being provincial also, wouldn't you agree?

Have a good day Sir,
Chas

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Charles

.

By the way, what were the situations when these drunken stiffs pulled a gun on you? I've never had this happen to me.

Yep, people with different experiences and preconceived ideas will disagree. The good part is we can discuss it and put it to a vote (if appropriate). We lose, We respect the majority, we win we respect the minority. I am fine with that.

As to my experiences, maybe I was not clear enough but both times a gun was pulled on me the people were good old honest hard working folks who misinterpreted the situation. Neither was drunk.
I have witnessed drunks pulling guns to intimidate. Of more concern (to say the least) are the two incidents where a family member was involved in a death.


One time, I am a 21 year old kid with my 18 year old girlfriend on a back dirt road, miles from people and two farmers were there in the dark. They ordered us out of the car and used a shotgun to help persuade us. Well I figured I was better off in the car so I threw it in reverse and drove backward as fast as I could. I still don't know how I kept from winding up in a ditch.
I come to find out days later that they were having trouble with people vandalizing their tractors at night and decided to play detective.

Another time (in Brooklyn) I brought a girl home and I was not welcomed by her brother. He seemed to think he made his point better with a revolver. I am sure in both cases if I were inclined to carry a gun it would have taken a bad situation and made it worse. I am pretty sure in both cases their neighbors think of them as responsible gun owners, I sure don't.


Anyway, have a good one Chas
all the best
noonereal

[noonereal]

One last thing, I have nothing against drunks.
In fact I kind of like them.
I certainly enjoy beer and wine, allot.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by soundhound

there have been several valid reasons given:

1) personal defense
2) hunting
3) sport (target practice)

the forefathers included the 2nd ammendment, i think, because they wanted to be able to protect themselves against their own government. and there's not a chance in hell of anyone invading the united states as long as such a large portion of the population is armed.

i haven't seen one valid reason why guns should NOT be possessed by citizens.

Thanks for the reply, here's my take.

You say valid reasons have been offered, I disagree.
1) personal defense
I have addressed this twice in the thread already. Long story short, the very, very rare case where a gun actually helps or saves people from crime is far exceeded by the slaughter incurred by guns.
2) hunting and 3) sport (target practice)
First I will say these are the same. No one needs to hunt to eat. I could expand on this considerably but don't feel it is needed. (If you prefer a fuller explanation just reply and I will expand.)
As they are not needed and guns do cause so much grief, this becomes an invalid reason to me. I would have no objection to sporting clubs, I think it would even be a good idea. It would need to be tightly controlled.

You then make a point about protection against the government and foreign entities. My feeling is that this need is long gone. Here in 2009 a gun will not stop either.

I base my opinion on the gun issue based on two factors, personal experience and intellectual though, just like you do. Clearly we come away with different conclusions. I resubmit my personal experience here. Given this and the fact that from all I have read and heard my experiences seem very representative of gun use in todays sociaty.
Given this, why would I support guns?


My personal experiences with guns,

Twice I have been threatened with a gun.
twice mistaken intent.

I have also seen guns pulled as a drunken threat twice and fired as a warning to barking dogs in the middle of the night.



family members involved with guns

Two dead,
one drug induced murder (between two friends), one death over a girl between cousins (mental illness)




Children with guns:

We have a next store neighbor who since the age of 10 has been shooting guns at targets with no supervision. He is know to be "slow" and a disciplinary problem. It makes for an uncomfortable situation.

There is a child at school who is always talking about guns and killings. Off school grounds he is know to have constant access to guns.




I know of no one who has ever used a gun in self defense.

It is no longer 1776, I don't support guns.

[soundhound]

Originally Posted by noonereal

2) hunting and 3) sport (target practice)
First I will say these are the same. No one needs to hunt to eat.

hunting and target practice are not the same thing. i don't shoot animals for target practice. and yes, many people need to hunt to eat. if it weren't for hunting, i'd have had many a meatless meal in my youth.