The "Social Contract".

[Brother_Karl]

I never signed any contract.

But apparently upon being born I am already able to give my consent to be governed by people who do not know me and do not represent me.

The issue isnt even that I am against this, the issue is that I was never asked.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Brother_Karl

I never signed any contract.

But apparently upon being born I am already able to give my consent to be governed by people who do not know me and do not represent me.

The issue isnt even that I am against this, the issue is that I was never asked.

So, society is not to move forward unless each and every individual gives his or her full consent? How is that even possible? I hear it all of the time, Karl. "Why should I have to comply with that regulation or pay that tax, I never consented to it."

The answer is simple; You will never achieve anything if you have to wait on a unanimous decision from the masses. Heck, half the time it's nearly impossible to do so with a simple majority.

Some just have to deal with it, when they don't get their way. We all face that from time to time. That's just how it is.

Dave

[Brother_Karl]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

So, society is not to move forward unless each and every individual gives his or her full consent? How is that even possible? I hear it all of the time, Karl. "Why should I have to comply with that regulation or pay that tax, I never consented to it."

The answer is simple; You will never achieve anything if you have to wait on a unanimous decision from the masses. Heck, half the time it's nearly impossible to do so with a simple majority.

Some just have to deal with it, when they don't get their way. We all face that from time to time. That's just how it is.

Dave

Dont make the mistake of thinking that, when I am against something, I am for everything else within this system.
It is not my fault that the system that we live in is created in such a way which makes it essential that everyone is coerced.

But lets get past that and get to the fact that this 'social contract' extends far further than it actually needs to. Why should people in Washington or people in London get to tell me how to live my life? If I want to have sex with my brother, for example, I should be able to but instead I have to abide by something written down by people who I do not know and do not care about.

Furthermore, lets not call it by its official name. 'Social contract' is an insult to language and its definition is an insult to reality. Lets not pretend that this is anything more than the states ownership of human beings such as me and you. Lets discuss things frankly and lets use words that suit reality rather than fantasy.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Brother_Karl

But lets get past that and get to the fact that this 'social contract' extends far further than it actually needs to. Why should people in Washington or people in London get to tell me how to live my life? If I want to have sex with my brother, for example, I should be able to but instead I have to abide by something written down by people who I do not know and do not care about.

Dude...Your own brother? Seriously, WTF?

Dave

[painter]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

So, society is not to move forward unless each and every individual gives his or her full consent? How is that even possible?

Dave

Good point.

I thought about it and maybe the concent is considered given when our children are born ( a SSI number is issued at that time).
So we WILLINGLY accept FOR our children all the issues that follow.

Dunno...just saying...

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by painter

Good point.

I thought about it and maybe the concent is considered given when our children are born ( a SSI number is issued at that time).
So we WILLINGLY accept FOR our children all the issues that follow.

Dunno...just saying...

Well, it's a little hard to explain things like old age benefits, social safety nets and the like to infants and fetuses (fetusi?), and obtain their consent to receive a SS number, now isn't it?

All I know is, I've had one since birth and never found it to be an issue at all.
I've been contributing since age 18 and would at least like to get my money back someday. Preferably when I need it most, which I surmise will be after I am too old and crotchety to work anymore.

Dave

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

Well, it's a little hard to explain things like old age benefits, social safety nets and the like to infants and fetuses (fetusi?), and obtain their consent to receive a SS number, now isn't it?

All I know is, I've had one since birth and never found it to be an issue at all.
I've been contributing since age 18 and would at least like to get my money back someday. Preferably when I need it most, which I surmise will be after I am too old and crotchety to work anymore.

Dave

So you're holding out until the old part gets here.

With respect to your comments on the religions having their own form of social contract - as I have mentioned before, I picked up a book called "The Political Teachings of Jesus," which I have been trying to read, but keep getting distracted by things like a John Lennon biography, a Studs Terkel book on death and dying, and a Mickey Mantle Biography. In any event, the thesis of the book is that the teachings of Jesus, disregarding the religious meaning, provide a pretty good framework for organizing a society. I'll have to get back to you on the author's full development of that thesis.

Finally, as far as the consent of those operating under the social contract - the consent is implied. We live under a social order that restrains violence against one another, that protects one's property, and that operates for the general welfare of the people. We trade unrestrained action for security, and by co-existing in a civil society are presumed to have consented to the obligations of maintaining it.

Regards,

D-Ray

[bhunter]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

Some question was raised concerning the "Social Contract" that d-ray often refers to. I thought I would post this link to further clarify the meaning of "social contract". I decided to put it in this forum since it seems to encompass all aspects of human social interaction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

Thoughts, opinions?

Dave

Here is another more comprehensive link to social contract theory:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/soc-cont/

If you like original source material:

Hobbes, Locke, More, and Rousseau are all good entry points; however, to get into the real intricacies Kant and Hume must be read. David Hume is quite accessible, but one often quoted statement regarding Kant is "He speaks through clouds without the benefit of the lightening flash for illumination." If you look at the above link you'll find that feminists and those seeking racial equality have traditionally been in opposition to social contract theory. Rawls' Theory of Justice is also worth reading if you're interested in social contract theory and the accompanying social justice assertions.

[Charles]

Don't need a contract when everybody's getting along, it's when everybody QUITS getting along that you need a contract.

Perhaps the reason why everybody AIN'T getting along so good is that our current social contract is leaving a lot of people holding the shitty end of the stick.

And unlike Socrates, if I sense that the powers that be are using "OUR" social contract to run smooth over my ass, then I consider the contract null and void.

BTW, I've always thought that Geronimo was the greatest American who ever lived. Don't guess he went to school proper, but he had the initiate ability to tell when his social contract was flawed, and he had the courage to do something about it.

Chas

[merrylander]

Good, so does that mean that we will not see any more of your inane babbling in this thread.