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  #431  
Old 08-16-2017, 09:25 AM
Chicks Chicks is offline
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Baltimore removes monuments to hate overnight. Good for them!

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/16/us/bal...val/index.html
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  #432  
Old 08-16-2017, 09:32 AM
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Trump lifted the garbage lid and found himself inside of it yesterday.
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  #433  
Old 08-16-2017, 09:48 AM
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tybrad tybrad is offline
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Let me start by saying that I am in no way a Trump supporter or apologist.

I woke to see the Baltimore story this morning. What is happening is SO very American- this erasure out of existence of anything or anyone who colored history regardless of their positive contributions. This is so very Soviet!

I think of Cosby. I think of Walter Lewin. And I think of the current condition. Lee was NOT like Hussein, Stalin, Hitler, Imin or any others who may some to your mind; to say so is extremely extremist in one's view. Some positive and constructive Lee facts from Wiki...

Lee privately opposed the Confederacy in letters in early 1861, denouncing secession as "nothing but revolution" and an unconstitutional betrayal of the efforts of the Founding Fathers. Writing to his eldest son in January, Lee stated:
The South, in my opinion, has been aggrieved by the acts of the North, as you say. I feel the aggression, and am willing to take every proper step for redress. It is the principle I contend for, not individual or private benefit. As an American citizen, I take great pride in my country, her prosperity and institutions, and would defend any State if her rights were invaded. But I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution. The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for "perpetual union," so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assemble.

When Virginia declared its secession from the Union in April 1861, Lee chose to follow his home state, despite his desire for the country to remain intact and an offer of a senior Union command.

After the war, Lee supported President Andrew Johnson's program of Reconstruction and intersectional friendship...

He urged them (the Radical Republicans) to rethink their position between the North and the South, and the reintegration of former Confederates into the nation's political life.




Do I support what he stood for during the War years? No. But to cast this General as is being done is wrong-minded. It seems to me that Lee fought for what he believed in, but in defeat tried to heal, mend, reintegrate.

Last edited by tybrad; 08-16-2017 at 09:53 AM.
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  #434  
Old 08-16-2017, 09:52 AM
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nailer nailer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whell View Post
Your entirely one-sided account just reinforces your bias, and that you're unable to have a rational discussion about this. Alternatively, here's a compilation of witness accounts. Sounds like a lot of bad behavior and "malice aforethought" on both sides to me.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...815-story.html

As much as the white-supremacist crowd should rightfully be reviled, they had a right to be there, and that right was confirmed by court order prior to Saturday. If folks had just ignored them, this would not have been a national story. Sadly, a very sick man with a history of mental illness drove his car into a crowd of counter-protesters and killed someone, and injured others. The violence was already out of hand by then, however.

No one is trying to "equate" anything here. But before we can understand the true nature of an issue, there has to be a way to look at it objectively and honestly.
Excellent article and a good post expect for your second sentence which begin with if. The white supremacist went there knowing they would not be ignored. Your second sentence could be interpreted as that of an apologist and a contradiction of your opening statement.
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  #435  
Old 08-16-2017, 09:53 AM
Chicks Chicks is offline
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The truth about Lee:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...al-lee/529038/
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  #436  
Old 08-16-2017, 09:55 AM
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nailer nailer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tybrad View Post
Let me start by saying that I am in no way a Trump supporter or apologist.

I woke to see the Baltimore story this morning. What is happening is SO very American- this erasure out of existence of anything or anyone who colored history regardless of their positive contributions. This is so very Soviet!

I think of Cosby. I think of Walter Lewin. And I think of the current condition. Lee was NOT like Hussein, Stalin, Hitler, Imin or any others who may some to your mind; to say so is extremely extremist in one's view. Some positive and constructive Lee facts from Wiki...

Lee privately opposed the Confederacy in letters in early 1861, denouncing secession as "nothing but revolution" and an unconstitutional betrayal of the efforts of the Founding Fathers. Writing to his eldest son in January, Lee stated:
The South, in my opinion, has been aggrieved by the acts of the North, as you say. I feel the aggression, and am willing to take every proper step for redress. It is the principle I contend for, not individual or private benefit. As an American citizen, I take great pride in my country, her prosperity and institutions, and would defend any State if her rights were invaded. But I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution. The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for "perpetual union," so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assemble.

When Virginia declared its secession from the Union in April 1861, Lee chose to follow his home state, despite his desire for the country to remain intact and an offer of a senior Union command.

After the war, Lee supported President Andrew Johnson's program of Reconstruction and intersectional friendship...

He urged them (the Radical Republicans) to rethink their position between the North and the South, and the reintegration of former Confederates into the nation's political life.




Do I support what he stood for during the War years? No. But to cast this General as is being done is wrong-minded. It seems to me that Lee fought for what he believed in, but in defeat tried to heal, mend, reintegrate.
A very Lost Cause take on Robert E. Lee.
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  #437  
Old 08-16-2017, 09:55 AM
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tybrad tybrad is offline
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So perhaps the question about the statues ought to be about their original intent...

Was it to honor individuals?

Was it to provide concrete memories to/of white supremacy?


If the former, let them be.
If the latter, then they must go.
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  #438  
Old 08-16-2017, 09:56 AM
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finnbow finnbow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whell View Post
And you are completely out of your mind, or at minimum, an ass. Congrats.
You are certainly aware that Trump has the godfather of the Alt-Right movement as a Chief Strategist? Bannon helped Trump try to craft a message that would (just barely) appease the establishment Republicans and the nation at large (fail) while maintaining a hold of the Alt-Right (neo-Nazi) segment of his base (success). Are you OK with a president who goes out of his way to maintain neo-Nazis within his (shrinking) base of support (and therefore refuses to fire Bannon despite Bannon's efforts to viciously undercut McMaster)?

I've wondered what it would take for Trump apologists such as yourself to abandon or condemn their Dear Leader. Apparently, providing moral support to Neo-Nazis and domestic terrorists doesn't cross your red line. If you want a look at what Trump describes as "nice people" on Friday night in Charlottesville, I recommend taking about 20 minutes to watch the peace-loving kindred spirits you and Trump are providing cover for. IMO, this should be essential viewing for anyone who still supports Trump.

https://youtu.be/P54sP0Nlngg
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Last edited by finnbow; 08-16-2017 at 10:01 AM.
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  #439  
Old 08-16-2017, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicks View Post
I read that article when originally posted and it's not.
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  #440  
Old 08-16-2017, 10:00 AM
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finnbow finnbow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tybrad View Post
So perhaps the question about the statues ought to be about their original intent...

Was it to honor individuals?

Was it to provide concrete memories to/of white supremacy?

If the former, let them be.
If the latter, then they must go.
And that information is easily available. For the most part, statues of anonymous soldiers are the former and statues of Generals and Jeff Davis are the latter.
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