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  #21  
Old 06-20-2015, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixote99 View Post
Not a power vacuum, but lousy leadership.

But I guess I'll grant you a 'military power vacuum,' vis-a-vis what became ISIS. I assume you think, in hindsight, that we should have kept a bunch more troops there. So how would you have gotten around the Iraqi regime's unwillingness to sign an acceptable SOF? Support a coup and install a puppet?

Think before you answer....

In hindsight I think you should stop assuming.
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  #22  
Old 06-20-2015, 09:16 AM
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A democratic Mideast is what the Democratic leadership bought and there were lots of Democrats who would get behind a good reason to kick Sadam's ass. Let's not forget it was Obama who left a power vacuum in Iraq.
Let's also not forget that Obama was merely implementing an agreement made with Iraq by the Bush Administration. And don't forget that Iraqi President al Maliki insisted on a SOFA which in effect placed US forces under Iraqi jurisdiction. While were at it, let's keep in mind that the government of Iraq at the time all of this occurred was popularly elected.
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  #23  
Old 06-20-2015, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mpholland View Post
Not a big Obama fan here, but he did inherit that situation, and he was fucked no matter what he did. I suppose he could have let it go on and we would have a few thousand more grieving parents here by now and still the same outcome after an inevitable withdrawal at some point.
Nixon did essentially the same thing with Vietnam.
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  #24  
Old 06-20-2015, 09:26 AM
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Let me also add that the rise of ISIS shouldn't really qualify as an "unknown unknown". It should have been recognized, and was recognized by people like Joe Biden, that firing the entire intelligentsia of Saddam's Iraq and disbanding the Army of Iraq, while allowing them to keep their weapons, was about as stupid an idea as can be imagined and that it gave rise to an armed opposition overnight.

ISIS is being run by former Ba'athists and Army field officers and intelligence operatives. Areas under their control are being administered by former Ba'athist bureaucrats. Oil facilities in ISIS controlled territory are being run by former Ba'athist engineers. These people aren't jihadis but they're using jihad as a recruiting tool.
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  #25  
Old 06-20-2015, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
Let's also not forget that Obama was merely implementing an agreement made with Iraq by the Bush Administration. And don't forget that Iraqi President al Maliki insisted on a SOFA which in effect placed US forces under Iraqi jurisdiction. While were at it, let's keep in mind that the government of Iraq at the time all of this occurred was popularly elected.
OIF was FUBAR from the start and now we're trying to keep it at SNAFU.
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  #26  
Old 06-20-2015, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nailer View Post
In hindsight I think you should stop assuming.
Evasive response as usual.
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  #27  
Old 06-20-2015, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by donquixote99 View Post
Evasive response as usual.
You made an assumption about what I was thinking and followed with questions derived from your assumption. Your assumption was wrong and thus your questions meaningless to what I had written.
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  #28  
Old 06-20-2015, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nailer View Post
Nixon did essentially the same thing with Vietnam.
That wasn't my point. I find it hard to blame a person for making a bad decision when he is faced with the choice of only being able to make a bad decision. It is kind of like someone holding a gun to two of your children's heads and asking you to pick one, or they both die.
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  #29  
Old 06-20-2015, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mpholland View Post
That wasn't my point. I find it hard to blame a person for making a bad decision when he is faced with the choice of only being able to make a bad decision. It is kind of like someone holding a gun to two of your children's heads and asking you to pick one, or they both die.
What does blame have to do with my posts?
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  #30  
Old 06-20-2015, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
Let me also add that the rise of ISIS shouldn't really qualify as an "unknown unknown". It should have been recognized, and was recognized by people like Joe Biden, that firing the entire intelligentsia of Saddam's Iraq and disbanding the Army of Iraq, while allowing them to keep their weapons, was about as stupid an idea as can be imagined and that it gave rise to an armed opposition overnight.

ISIS is being run by former Ba'athists and Army field officers and intelligence operatives. Areas under their control are being administered by former Ba'athist bureaucrats. Oil facilities in ISIS controlled territory are being run by former Ba'athist engineers. These people aren't jihadis but they're using jihad as a recruiting tool.
ISIS is a form of Arab/Sunni nationalism and it should have been an unknown known.

Hasn't ISIS kicked the Ba'athist out of most of Syria (square km)?
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