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  #441  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:03 AM
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tybrad tybrad is offline
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Yeah, see? This is what happens when one tries to use today's sensibilities on historical perspectives. This is a very difficult thing to do, but it is all that we have, I suppose.
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  #442  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by tybrad View Post
So perhaps the question about the statues ought to be about their original intent...

Was it to honor individuals?

Was it to provide concrete memories to/of white supremacy?


If the former, let them be.
If the latter, then they must go.
The issue is far more complicated than that, but for the most part they are memorials to the heroes of the Lost Cause and thus a celebration of white supremacy. At the end of Burns' The Civil War, an attractive historian pointed out the the nation was reunited after the war in the knowledge that whites were superior to the freedmen.
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  #443  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:09 AM
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And that information is easily available. For the most part, statues of anonymous soldiers are the former and statues of Generals and Jeff Davis are the latter.
The soldier statues are not that cut and dried. Many soldier statues are Lost Cause monuments and I'd recommend 1900 as the arbitrary dividing line.
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  #444  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:15 AM
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Excellent article and a good post expect for your second sentence which begin with if. The white supremacist went there knowing they would not be ignored. Your second sentence could be interpreted as that of an apologist and a contradiction of your opening statement.
No, not being an apologist. However, I think its worth pointing out we're going to condemn violence by one group, we have to condemn it by any other group. Its called consistency.

The alternative looks like this:

We appropriately condemn the violence of the neo-Nazi crowd in VA. We inappropriately excuse the violence of the Antifa / BLM crowd in VA. The result is tacit approval of vigilantism in pursuit of punishing those who engage in racism. As abhorrent as racism is, I don't think anyone wants to condone vigilantism.
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  #445  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:17 AM
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The soldier statues are not that cut and dried. Many soldier statues are Lost Cause monuments and I'd recommend 1900 as the arbitrary dividing line.
I'm still OK with letting local communities, like Charlottesville, decide for themselves without threats and intimidation from armed Neo-Nazis.
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  #446  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:21 AM
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Enough with the histrionics! Are you seriously comparing a legal march in the park with the Holocaust?!?
Most of those guys long to commit genocide. They are a danger. Their memes can spread, and authoritarians in the police and military are susceptible.

If the police and military acquiesce, they can forcibly take power. They are seeking to make that happen.

Look at this VICE video, which contains white supremacist spokesmen, speaking very frankly: https://boingboing.net/2017/08/15/vi...hite-supr.html

Times of interview segments: 3:40-4:20, 7:15-8:42, 9:00-9:24, 19:05-21:36.
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  #447  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by finnbow View Post
I'm still OK with letting local communities, like Charlottesville, decide for themselves without threats and intimidation from armed Neo-Nazis.

Threats and intimidation: one of the segements I point out above is a militia guy talking to the police and threatening to send 200 armed men downtown.

Don't think he had 200 armed men, but the threat was credible in any case.
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  #448  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:25 AM
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The white national protest did have a night-rally Nuremburg ambiance to it.
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  #449  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:25 AM
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Enough with the histrionics! Are you seriously comparing a legal march in the park with the Holocaust?!?
No, he's comparing neo-Nazis to Nazis.
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  #450  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by finnbow View Post
You are certainly aware that Trump has the godfather of the Alt-Right movement as a Chief Strategist?
I know you want desperately to tie all this to Trump. As I've pointed out earlier, that position is absolutely baseless, and frankly there's little historical evidence that Trump is even ideological. Nor do I see you suggesting that Obama "owns" Antifa or BLM", even though he hosted them in the White House. Obama also hosted folks who were tied to the incitement of violence at Trump campaign stops, yet you don't think any of the race issues or violence should touch Obama because those aren't "his people".

But don't let that stop you, hate-master.
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