Religion has had it's time.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by Oerets

My experiences with religion is a simple one. It has little effect on a strong willed persons ability to do the right or wrong thing. Just the easily swayed.

So will always be around in one shape or another to control the masses. Even the Nazis came up with a mythology to confuse and use.

Barney

Barney some people are control freaks and they manage without religion as a tool. I recall summat about Kool Aid in South America. The one thing that I have learned, well two things actually, first we have free will so whatever happens to us is usually our own fault or just happenstance. The second thing was what He called the second greatest commandment* is quite true - love your neighbor as yourself. Now think about that - most people really don't love themselves and so cannot love others. So you see what the shrinks call projection - people will assume that others will act toward them as they themselves would. Now loving yourself does not mean being blind to one's own faults - but at least you know they are faults and so don't project them onto others.

* I have often wondered why we call them commandments, I mean who is going to enforce them, beyond 'Thou shalt not murder'.

Another thing is this idea that the Old Testament is God's word - he did not fax it down. It is mostly allegorical and historical. You don't actually believe Adam and Eve were the first surely. Note that every artists painting of Adam and Eve shows both with navels - really?

Actually that story was the first example of misogyny. Blame it all on poor Eve.

[piece-itpete]

Most who think the Bible is either anti-intellectual and or a good tool for controlling people haven't read it (I strongly rec Jesus's conversations with Pilate for politically-minded people particularly). There is a reason the renaissance followed/partnered with the printing press, classical works along with the ubiquitous and no need for name 'Book': Bible.

As the last century has shown, whenever you toss out right and wrong and go for 'situational ethics' people tend to die in large numbers.

Pete

[nailer]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Most who think the Bible is either anti-intellectual and or a good tool for controlling people haven't read it (I strongly rec Jesus's conversations with Pilate for politically-minded people particularly). There is a reason the renaissance followed/partnered with the printing press, classical works along with the ubiquitous and no need for name 'Book': Bible.

As the last century has shown, whenever you toss out right and wrong and go for 'situational ethics' people tend to die in large numbers.

Pete

I'm a secular Methodist and as such I think Jesus of Nazareth's primary point as captured in the Gospels is - we're all in this together, let's help each other out. I believe/think Jesus' primary point is a good one. I think/believe that we don't need religion to be moral because it's part of being human in that we are born with moral instinct.

[bobabode]

Originally Posted by nailer

I'm a secular Methodist and as such I think Jesus of Nazareth's primary point as captured in the Gospels is - we're all in this together, let's help each other out. I believe/think Jesus' primary point is a good one. I think/believe that we don't need religion to be moral because it's part of being human in that we are born with moral instinct.

Dang Bob, well said for a Baltimoron.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by nailer

I'm a secular Methodist and as such I think Jesus of Nazareth's primary point as captured in the Gospels is - we're all in this together, let's help each other out. I believe/think Jesus' primary point is a good one. I think/believe that we don't need religion to be moral because it's part of being human in that we are born with moral instinct.

I was going to debate this then I suddenly remembered our son as a child (And if I forgot for a moment he is 49 years old so it was some time ago). Whenever he would come in from playing to use the john or summat if there were new cookies on the plate he would not only ask for one but also one for each of his chums that were outside. So yeah, we probably are born with it but have it 'educated' out of us along the way.

So I was gone for 10-15 minutes to feed the kitties and got logged out. Just wanted to note that our ophthalmologist is quite pleased with me the AMD is still dry and the vision in the right eye seems to be getting better. Ah the golden years are here at last, the golden years can kiss my ***

[whell]

Originally Posted by nailer

I'm a secular Methodist and as such I think Jesus of Nazareth's primary point as captured in the Gospels is - we're all in this together, let's help each other out. I believe/think Jesus' primary point is a good one. I think/believe that we don't need religion to be moral because it's part of being human in that we are born with moral instinct.

While we're all capable of being moral, morals can be subjective and subject to redefinition by - in worst cases - the least common denominators among us. The value of religious institutions are that they can service as a way to set and stabilize morality within a culture. Unfortunately, history also shows that - since they are run by humans - they can also be corrupted. That said, I think for the most part religious institutions have done far more good than not, and are capable of doing more good.

[piece-itpete]

Everyone, get sanford!!



Pete

[Rajoo]

Religion has been a unifying force for societies for centuries. But once unified and indoctrinated, religions are quite effective in promoting discord and eventual wars between people of different beliefs. And this cycle repeats. It is at it's worst usually when there are wars between factions of the same religion.

Also for a religious faith to take hold, one needs a strong document that people will take at face value without discourse. This is usually not easy without certain brainwashing and guilt trips. Most people that quote the Bible or the Koran do so expecting you not to challenge what is written and can seldom explain why. "It says so in the book" is the end of it. Try asking who wrote it?

So in the end, religions were meant to unite people but ends up dividing and leading to conflicts. Yet it is also an effective stick in countries with poor educational levels. Or without it, anarchy will prevail. "God will punish you" is a very effective tool.

I am and have been a practicing atheist but it has been more of a defense mechanism than an answer.

[whell]

Of course there are extremists on both ends of the spectrum of the religious debate that give their respective causes a black eye. The folks in the middle are caught up in the damage caused by the folks on the extremes who can't seem to embrace the concept of "live and let live". For example, while you might admire his conviction, here's an example of someone who can't "live and let live":

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...sade/22253013/

As far as religious types who don't get it, one need look no further than what's going on in Iraq and Syria.

[Rajoo]

Originally Posted by whell

Of course there are extremists on both ends of the spectrum of the religious debate that give their respective causes a black eye. The folks in the middle are caught up in the damage caused by the folks on the extremes who can't seem to embrace the concept of "live and let live". For example, while you might admire his conviction, here's an example of someone who can't "live and let live":

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...sade/22253013/

As far as religious types who don't get it, one need look no further than what's going on in Iraq and Syria.

I disagree. From the link above:

"Everybody knows this is a Christian place, not a Muslim place, not a Hindu place," Matt Kooienga, associate pastor of Harvest Baptist Church in Hudsonville, said during the Jan. 13 work session. "We don't have to lock our doors. The reason for that is we're Christians."

Is this sentiment OK with you? To say the least, it is discriminatory and illegal.