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  #21  
Old 02-26-2010, 08:13 AM
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merrylander merrylander is offline
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Glen Beck even said Teddy Roosevelt was a socialist - go figure.
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  #22  
Old 02-26-2010, 11:24 AM
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BlueStreak BlueStreak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merrylander View Post
Glen Beck even said Teddy Roosevelt was a socialist - go figure.
To Glen Beck, everyone is a Socialist, or a Nazi. Well, 'cept maybe Reagan.

(Oh, that's right, in GBs mind a Socialist and a Nazi are the same thing.)

Dave
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  #23  
Old 02-28-2010, 07:51 PM
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d-ray657 d-ray657 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noonereal View Post
I remember back in the 70's one of the first people I had to let go was someone I had "carried" for a long time. When I told him he would be let go he was shocked. He demanded to know why if he was not producing why was he not told by me? I told him I never told him because I did not want him to feel bad and since I could get things done anyway why upset him.
He told me that I had not been fair to him and that by not being honest with him no matter what my intent gave him no opportunity to become productive.
He was right.

After that I fired many other people over the years but never had a bad experience again as I was always very clear on expectations and reviewed performance. In fact I had several people apologize to me when I fired them and even had people seek me out years later to thank me for all I had done for them in spite of having to fire them eventually.

Still it was never pleasant.
I've been fortunate in my career to put several people back to work through the arbitration process. You have just described one of the important facets of just cause - notice. Performance based discipline needs to be progressive discipline - performance based discharges that are not preceded by progressive discipline will more often than not be overturned as an "ambush." (assuming the employee is one of that small minority of people who have the protection of a just cause provision in a collective bargaining agreement)

Not only is progressive discipline an important aspect of just cause from a labor law perspective, but it is really sound management. The cost of turnover is enormous. If a company can avoid the cost of finding and training a new employee by taking the time with an existing employee to correct performance issues, it serves the interest of both. I know that from a union perspective, employees who have been given adequate opportunity to correct performance/production issues and have failed to do so are not likely to see a grievance over their discharge proceed to arbitration.

Layoffs are tougher situations. Employees in those instances lose their jobs even when they have performed well. Sometimes, they lose their jobs because those above them in the food chain have not done their jobs well. The only good side of an economic layoff is that it carries with it no stigma of having been discharged for misconduct or poor performance, and thus has a lesser negative impact on future opportunities.

Good luck to all out there who are facing the uncertainties of the job market. I guess I'm "lucky." When our business is bad, I don't get laid off - I just work without getting paid.

Regards,

D-Ray
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  #24  
Old 02-28-2010, 10:17 PM
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VinylHanger VinylHanger is offline
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I'm in the club. 6 weeks unemployed here. It was a bit different in my case as we ended up shutting the whole shop down, 9 of us gone on the same day. We knew it was coming and pretty much picked the day we wanted to end it.

I'm actually enjoying the fact that I can turn this ship of my life into a new direction. I'm spending lots of time with my daughter and my wife when she's not working, so it ain't all bad.

The thing that will get us through is that we pretty much don't have any real bills these days, and moved into a rental that is half the rent of our old place, and as an added bonus, it's nicer too. If we need to we can drop all the fun stuff: sattelite, internet, etc. and get by even easier, but with unemployment and my wife working, we should be fine. I have slowed pretty much all my hobby spending these days and just concentrate on the basics. Not a bad place to be. Hopefully it will be a short vacation and I'll be back making money again, but I'm trying to look at it with a positive outlook.
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  #25  
Old 03-01-2010, 07:05 AM
Charles Charles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-ray657 View Post
I've been fortunate in my career to put several people back to work through the arbitration process. You have just described one of the important facets of just cause - notice. Performance based discipline needs to be progressive discipline - performance based discharges that are not preceded by progressive discipline will more often than not be overturned as an "ambush." (assuming the employee is one of that small minority of people who have the protection of a just cause provision in a collective bargaining agreement)

Not only is progressive discipline an important aspect of just cause from a labor law perspective, but it is really sound management. The cost of turnover is enormous. If a company can avoid the cost of finding and training a new employee by taking the time with an existing employee to correct performance issues, it serves the interest of both. I know that from a union perspective, employees who have been given adequate opportunity to correct performance/production issues and have failed to do so are not likely to see a grievance over their discharge proceed to arbitration.

Layoffs are tougher situations. Employees in those instances lose their jobs even when they have performed well. Sometimes, they lose their jobs because those above them in the food chain have not done their jobs well. The only good side of an economic layoff is that it carries with it no stigma of having been discharged for misconduct or poor performance, and thus has a lesser negative impact on future opportunities.

Good luck to all out there who are facing the uncertainties of the job market. I guess I'm "lucky." When our business is bad, I don't get laid off - I just work without getting paid.

Regards,

D-Ray
I do it a little different.

I pay to go to work.

Chas
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