Here we go again with the war on contraceptives

[piece-itpete]

They need to read Job.

Pete

[merrylander]

Part of the problem is that there are Christians and there are christians, being in the latter group we are quite happy and content.

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by merrylander

Part of the problem is that there are Christians and there are christians, being in the latter group we are quite happy and content.

Certainly, you speak the truth.

However, we're pushed into this sort of discussion every time some evangelical, some Catholic, some Christian Scientist, or some political/idological supporter of one or all of the above decides to start whining about how they're being forced as an employer to pay for health coverage that violates their belief system, or some non-employer who starts whining about how they don't want to subsidize any insurance group that provides health coverages that violate their belief system.

There's no way to address it without addressing the religious bigotry inherent in it. You people...you Christians have been paying into health insurance plans that violate your tender belief system in one way or another for over 4 decades. And now...now when 30 million of your disadvantaged fellow citizens are finally going to have some decent health coverage...now when we won't have 45,000 uninsured Americans dying needlessly every year from otherwise treatable conditions...now it's a goddamn violation of their special beliefs. Well...tough shit.

And to be honest, for me it's way more than that. It's the incessant whining about the death of Christmas. The incessant whining about the victimization of Christians and the prejudice perpetrated against Christians by all of us non-Christian heathen bastards all across the fruited plain. It's unbelievable. Christians constitute the most powerful and politically influential religious group in this nation. It's remarkable how their ideology has infiltrated the daily life of every person in this country and the politics of the nation.

And the best they can do is incessantly whine about how bad it is for them? Really? Along with all their power and influence they are without question the most culturally self-absorbed religious group in this country.

Well here's what I say. Your religion is yours and not anybody else's. Take it to church where it belongs. Keep it in church where it belongs. It belongs in church and not in the classroom, the medical research laboratory, or the governmental body.

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick...y'know?

[piece-itpete]

You could look at it this way...

My religion is my own. So is the money I've earned. Don't make me pay for things I don't believe in. That would be you forcing your beliefs on me.

Furthermore, as a free man I can take my religion wherever I wish. Having to take it where you want is again you forcing your beliefs on me.

Two edged sword, cuts both ways, etc.

Dawkins on a pogo stick, y'know?

Pete

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

You could look at it this way...

My religion is my own. So is the money I've earned. Don't make me pay for things I don't believe in. That would be you forcing your beliefs on me.

Furthermore, as a free man I can take my religion wherever I wish. Having to take it where you want is again you forcing your beliefs on me.

Two edged sword, cuts both ways, etc.

Dawkins on a pogo stick, y'know?

Pete

My issue is not so much you having to pay for stuff you don't believe in Pete. My issue is that all of a sudden when the poor of America are finally getting a break...now it's a problem. Why hasn't it been a problem for the last four decades...eh Pete?

PS - the Constitution has already clearly provided for where religion does and does not belong. My description of it may be crude, but accurate nonetheless. If objections to abortion, contraception, embryonic stem cell research, and teaching Darwin in science class were based in anything but the complainant's bigoted personal religious beliefs (in my book they're down home good 'ol boy religious bigots who have the only real god) you would not be hearing this ranting coming outta me.

PSS - I find it so interesting that the pious have this outrage over embryonic stem cell research and at the same time no problem at all with the couple sitting next to them at the Evangelical Free Church on Sunday authorizing the fertility clinic to flush a half dozen embryos they don't need anymore down the toilet. All life is sacred, but some life is more sacred than others. Did Orwell say that?

[piece-itpete]

Ah so. Still disagree

Intent does indeed matter regarding things like embryos. Turns out you don't even need them for stem cell research. As far as the poor, Christian charities are a charity powerhouse.

Is there a difference in the Constitution if I object to abortion on humanitarian grounds vs religious grounds? If one's objection to evolution was based on the obvious scientific fallacy of it being taught as a fact vs a working theory, or because God made humans?

Seems if you put the word 'religious' behind the word 'belief' it's bad, but 'belief' by itself is A-OK. So the Constitution intentionally discriminates against religion? In the face of the culture of the time it was written?

I think we agree that idiots come in all stripes.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Ike Bana

Certainly, you speak the truth.

However, we're pushed into this sort of discussion every time some evangelical, some Catholic, some Christian Scientist, or some political/idological supporter of one or all of the above decides to start whining about how they're being forced as an employer to pay for health coverage that violates their belief system, or some non-employer who starts whining about how they don't want to subsidize any insurance group that provides health coverages that violate their belief system.

There's no way to address it without addressing the religious bigotry inherent in it. You people...you Christians have been paying into health insurance plans that violate your tender belief system in one way or another for over 4 decades. And now...now when 30 million of your disadvantaged fellow citizens are finally going to have some decent health coverage...now when we won't have 45,000 uninsured Americans dying needlessly every year from otherwise treatable conditions...now it's a goddamn violation of their special beliefs. Well...tough shit.

And to be honest, for me it's way more than that. It's the incessant whining about the death of Christmas. The incessant whining about the victimization of Christians and the prejudice perpetrated against Christians by all of us non-Christian heathen bastards all across the fruited plain. It's unbelievable. Christians constitute the most powerful and politically influential religious group in this nation. It's remarkable how their ideology has infiltrated the daily life of every person in this country and the politics of the nation.

And the best they can do is incessantly whine about how bad it is for them? Really? Along with all their power and influence they are without question the most culturally self-absorbed religious group in this country.

Well here's what I say. Your religion is yours and not anybody else's. Take it to church where it belongs. Keep it in church where it belongs. It belongs in church and not in the classroom, the medical research laboratory, or the governmental body.

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick...y'know?

Beautiful. Just Beautiful.

Thank You, Sir.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

You could look at it this way...

My religion is my own. So is the money I've earned. Don't make me pay for things I don't believe in. That would be you forcing your beliefs on me.

Furthermore, as a free man I can take my religion wherever I wish. Having to take it where you want is again you forcing your beliefs on me.

Two edged sword, cuts both ways, etc.

Dawkins on a pogo stick, y'know?

Pete

I don't worship condoms or pecker pills. It's not a religion. They're just common items that serve a purpose. No one is forcing the saintly employer to use them. Heck, he really isn't even paying for them the insurance company is.

I suppose if an employer is paying for insurance, he tracks every single penny he pays into it, to make sure the insurance company isn't using his money to provide contraceptives to other customers? Hmmmmm...............? Does he? I seriously doubt it.

No, these people are ridiculous. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with religion, it's all political.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by MrPots

Another problem...too many false Christians and too few real Christians.

Like the Christians that believe the more crap and money you have, the closer you are to God's favor.

That would be Robertson legions. Greed is not just "good" with these clowns, it's "Godly". That's right. If you're rich, it's a sign that you're favored by God...

One day a woman complimented my car, telling me how nice it is. Then she added "You have truly been blessed."

I felt a little guilty later, because I know she meant well, but I couldn't resist.
I told her, "I made my money selling animal porn."

Dave

[Ike Bana]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Ah so. Still disagree

Intent does indeed matter regarding things like embryos. Turns out you don't even need them for stem cell research. As far as the poor, Christian charities are a charity powerhouse.

Is there a difference in the Constitution if I object to abortion on humanitarian grounds vs religious grounds? If one's objection to evolution was based on the obvious scientific fallacy of it being taught as a fact vs a working theory, or because God made humans?

Seems if you put the word 'religious' behind the word 'belief' it's bad, but 'belief' by itself is A-OK. So the Constitution intentionally discriminates against religion? In the face of the culture of the time it was written?

I think we agree that idiots come in all stripes.

Pete

I'm all for being spiritual. I'm not much for being religious. Seems to me the cause for most of the carnage that alleged human beings have done to each other over the course of time has had as it's basis...a difference of "religion".

I don't like abortion all that much myself...probably as a humanitarian issue and because had abortion been legal when my bio-mother was pregs, I would probably not be typing this now. I have a lot of problems with religious opposition to it...probably due to Dawkins and some other stuff. Just my way of seeing it, so...