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  #21  
Old 02-20-2015, 12:50 PM
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HarmanKardon HarmanKardon is offline
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Originally Posted by finnbow View Post
A distinction without a difference when it comes to the Third Reich.
That, sir, is absolutely false. You should know better. Even between 1933 and 1945 there was also another "Germany" than "Nazi Germany". Your comment disappoints me.
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Last edited by HarmanKardon; 02-20-2015 at 12:52 PM.
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  #22  
Old 02-20-2015, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by HarmanKardon View Post
That, sir, is absolutely false. You should know better. Even between 1933 and 1945 there was also another "Germany" than "Nazi Germany". Your comment disappoints me.
My earlier point was that modern-day Germany has done a very good job in coming to terms with the atrocities committed in its name during WWII (unlike Japan). Was it also incorrect to have said Japan in this context (as opposed to some convoluted construction like "the militant followers of Hideki Tojo")? Similarly, should any criticism of the American first use of the A-Bomb at Hiroshima be directed solely to members of the Army Air Corp or Roosevelt/Truman's Democratic Party?

As for there having been another Germany from 1933-1945, there was certainly political opposition in the early years. But, it faded quickly with the growth of the (militarizing) German economy and the ease of early battlefield victories. You would have been hard-pressed to find many skeptics among average Germans after his march into the (demilitarized) Rhineland in March 1936 or the overwhelming victory against France in May-June 1940. At the risk of offending you, I believe that a lot of modern-day Germans try to downplay the level of support Hitler had. It did indeed become overwhelming before it all came crashing down.

This tendency among nations to airbrush their pasts is not unique to Germany. Currently, there are a lot of Republicans who want to edit what is taught in American History in high school to emphasize only the positive while ignoring the negative.
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Last edited by finnbow; 02-20-2015 at 01:40 PM.
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  #23  
Old 02-20-2015, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by HarmanKardon View Post
One of the most difficult questions still is the definition of the German citizen then. A lot of them were Nazis, no question about that. But a lot of Germans did just as much as was necessary in order to survive. My Grandfather and his brother, my Granduncle were in Stalingrad. My Grandfather was a physician and his brother a reverend. Grandpa "repaired" the warriors as far as he could and Granduncle buried the soldiers who died under Grandpas hands. Nazis?

Two absolutely lovely people, Grandpa worked as a doctor until 1978 and died aged 95. Granduncle became mentally sick soon after the end of the war as a result of what he exerienced in Stalingrad and died 1976 in a state of mental derangement.
My next door neighbours back in Quebec were from Germany, he was conscripted into the army but emigrated as soon as they could, damn good neigbours and nice people.

I also had a good friend Ruthild (May she rest in piece) she was a hostess at a standards conference in Nurnburg and a fellow philatelist. She died in a car crash on the autobahn.
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  #24  
Old 02-20-2015, 01:51 PM
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Watching "Leni Riefenstahl, the immoderation in me" on youtube.

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  #25  
Old 02-20-2015, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by finnbow View Post
My earlier point was that modern-day Germany has done a very good job in coming to terms with the atrocities committed in its name during WWII (unlike Japan). Was it also incorrect to have said Japan in this context (as opposed to some convoluted construction like "the militant followers of Hideki Tojo")? Similarly, should any criticism of the American first use of the A-Bomb at Hiroshima be directed solely to members of the Army Air Corp or Roosevelt/Truman's Democratic Party?

As for there having been another Germany from 1933-1945, there was certainly political opposition in the early years. But, it faded quickly with the growth of the (militarizing) German economy and the ease of early battlefield victories. You would have been hard-pressed to find many skeptics among average Germans after his march into the (demilitarized) Rhineland in March 1936 or the overwhelming victory against France in May-June 1940. At the risk of offending you, I believe that a lot of modern-day Germans try to downplay the level of support Hitler had. It did indeed become overwhelming before it all came crashing down.

This tendency among nations to airbrush their pasts is not unique to Germany. Currently, there are a lot of Republicans who want to edit what is taught in American History in high school to emphasize only the positive while ignoring the negative.
And people tend to conform, once they realize the futility of opposition. The Nazis had efficiently systematically terrorized Germany.
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  #26  
Old 02-20-2015, 02:26 PM
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And people tend to conform, once they realize the futility of opposition. The Nazis had efficiently systematically terrorized Germany.
Yes, that was the intention all along. Claus Von Staffenburg knew full well what he was up against, and the probable consequences. If only----.

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  #27  
Old 02-20-2015, 02:36 PM
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Bluebook essay contest:

Compare and contrast the reaction of Egypt to Morisi's effort to become a dictator in 2012 with that of Germany in the 1930s after the passage of various Enabling Acts.
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  #28  
Old 02-20-2015, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Pio1980 View Post
Yes, that was the intention all along. Claus Von Staffenburg knew full well what he was up against, and the probable consequences. If only----.

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It's thought that, though von Stauffenberg disapproved of things like Hitler's treatment of the Jews and the general loss of religious freedom under Hitler, he was totally on board with the war aims of the Third Reich. He had been urged since the beginning of the war to join the German resistance movement but had... um... resisted. It really wasn't until it became obvious to him that Germany couldn't win the war that von Stauffenberg signed on.

In his autobiography, Hans Bernd Gisevius, one of the few survivors of the resistance, had this to say about von Stauffenberg:

"Stauffenberg wanted to retain all the totalitarian, militaristic and soci@listic elements of National Soci@lism (p. 504). What he had in mind was the salvation of Germany by military men who could break with corruption and maladministration, who would provide an orderly military government and would inspire the people to make one last great effort. Reduced to a formula, he wanted the nation to remain soldierly and become soci@listic (p. 503).

"Stauffenberg was motivated by the impulsive passions of the disillusioned military man whose eyes had been opened by the defeat of German arms (p. 510). Stauffenberg had shifted to the rebel side only after Stalingrad (p. 512). The difference between Stauffenberg, Helldorf and Schulenburg — all of them counts — was that Helldorf had come to the Nazi Movement as a primitive, I might almost say an unpolitical revolutionary. The other two had been attracted primarily by a political ideology. Therefore, it was possible for Helldorf to throw everything overboard at once: Hitler, the Party, the entire system. Stauffenberg, Schulenberg and their clique wanted to drop no more ballast than was absolutely necessary; then they would paint the ship of state a military gray and set it afloat again (p. 513–514)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_v...war_misgivings

John

Last edited by Boreas; 02-20-2015 at 03:57 PM.
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  #29  
Old 02-20-2015, 03:21 PM
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Thnx John.
It's my impression that he came to understand that Germany was going down because of the regimes incompetence at the top and AH's insistence that if he goes down the Reich and Germany go down with him as per his delusion of being the living embodiment of the core spirit of the State itself.

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  #30  
Old 02-20-2015, 03:34 PM
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The Leni Riefenstahl interview film I'm watching is excellent, highly recommended if any interest.

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