Poll on Ferguson Grand Jury Results

[donquixote99]

Thank-you icenine and merrylander for noteing that this question did not ask for anyone's opinion of riots.

The Grand Jury looked at "all" the evidence, listened to the testimony of Wilson, and decided he was not guilty. That was not their job, and without an actual judge overseeing the process, and two opposing attorneys calling and questioning witnesses, I don't have confidence that they could do that job well or fairly.

Events remain murky in the crucial period after Brown took off and Wilson pursued. Witness statements conflict. Brown was killed. The grand jury's job was simply to decide if the accusations against Wilson warranted a decision by a trial court as to his guilt or innocence. Instead, there were no accusations, so they were led to take on the prosecutor's job--they were to make any accusations that would be made. And in addition they were led to take on the trial court's job, sort through the evidence, and decide the truth of Wilson's guilt or innocence.

They were given the roles both of prosecutor and trial court, and I have big questions about whether they had the expertise, and ability in the circumstances, to do these things properly and fairly. As I said in the discussion already, an actual public trial, with a prosecutor prosecuting, and a defense attorney defending, would have been better. Much better.

[finnbow]

I think the authorities/prosecutor had already internally investigated the case and decided that no charges were warranted and, under public pressure, they convened a grand jury to publicly formalize these findings and thereby assuage the mob. However, the mob was already convinced that Wilson was guilty, facts be damned, mostly on the basis of erroneous statements made by Brown's partner-in-crime (which were refuted by the physical evidence).

[sheltiedave]

Finnbow, you do realize that I am part of the "mob," as are over 95% of the people I work with at the Army Corps of Engineers cleanup site, as are over 70% of the law enforcement professionals I pal around with.

Physical facts have many facets, especially in a fluid situation that is emotionally charged. Another fact is I am one of a very few people at this forum who has read the entire grand jury testimony at this point. If Wilson were subject to a tenth of the withering line of questioning that some of the witnesses underwent, he would have collapsed like a house of cards.

You guys all get to sit on the sidelines, pontificating about justice and police behaviour, and you don't know the slightest thing about St. Louis. You don't know that the city police force was controlled by the state since the Civil War. You don't know that the Ferguson Police Department exists to provide over 60% of the municipality's budget, or that over 70% of the fines are paid by minorities. You don't know that the DA is one of the most caustic bigots I have met in a long time.

You are not capable of following the bouncing ball, ie police chief Tom Jackson stating on TV that "the robbery had NOTHING to do with the stop." Why? Because he knew that the dispatcher passed the message AFTER the incident had occurred. You have missed that Wilson's radio had been bumped to a different channel. You have missed that one of two of the Ferguson police transceivers was bumped to an alternate mode. You missed that the St. Louis County PD communications center, which digitally records all targeted municipality radio coms, does not have Wilson's initial incident coms.

You missed that Wilson was allowed to go back to the station, clean himself up, package his gun as evidence, and be alone for over half an hour, against all federal, state, and St. Louis County Police guidelines.

You missed the call for a special prosecutor to be appointed, a common thing with the St. Louis County's DA office, as they are overwhelmed with criminal cases every year. The county spends millions on outside prosecutors, but McCulloch decided this case was special and held on to it, most vigorously.

You missed that most homicide grand juries last less than two weeks, because the DA's office parses the "good" testimony from the "confused" testimony, recommends a resolution, and guides the grand to that resolution. Grand juries are as gullible and innocent as a guppy.

You missed that the third party medical examiner did not do his job, not taking notes or photos, because it was obvious what happened.

What happened was business as usual. Lots of unanswered questions, tons of loose ends, old white people glad the virile young stud black(let us emphasize BLACK) thug was killed, cops rejoicing that they get granted even more power, and a community waiting for the next fumbled football. And no one is willing to be accountable for the community in the entire chain.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by sheltiedave

Finnbow, you do realize that I am part of the "mob," as are over 95% of the people I work with at the Army Corps of Engineers cleanup site, as are over 70% of the law enforcement professionals I pal around with....

Actually, I was aware of every fact in your litany. That said, I remain convinced that this is a local story that didn't deserve national/international attention. The riots it spawned, based initially upon the seemingly fictitious (and self-serving) statements by Brown's partner-in-crime helped initiate the riots well before any facts were known.

FWIW, I've spent considerable time in St. Louis consulting on a variety of projects managed by the St. Louis District of the Corps (mostly Lock and Dam #26's replacement, Melvin Price), mostly in the mid '80's. Never did much like the place (outside of going to Cardinals' ball games) and was well aware of the racial tensions in the community.

Here's an example of a more problematic incidence of a cop shooting and killing someone who seemingly didn't deserve it. Yet, it hasn't received national notoriety, nor caused rioting, arson and looting. It will be handled locally, without the need for the grievance industry and their compliant media.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...984_story.html

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by icenine

I think people are losing sight of the fact that no one really knows what happened, and that Michael Brown himself did not cause the riots, and to be fair Wilson had nothing to do with them either. They are a response that I do not agree with but I can understand the frustration of the community in Ferguson.

The grand jury is just there to establish probable cause, and since our society generally protects policemen in most cases like this it is not surprising that there was not a strong effort by McCulloch to pursue it. But to suggest external events automatically decide whether or not a process was correct or not is ridiculous. Just because buildings were set on fire and cars destroyed does not mean that the law abiding citizens of Ferguson do not have a legitimate reason to question their local law authorities in a lawful manner.
In other words if you take the Brown side you are not a bomb throwing anarchist.

Right. I can agree with much of this. There is far too much "all or nothing' vitriol floating around with a pervasive indictment of "they", "them" and "those people".

Also of interest is the new phrase I have seen surfacing of late; "entitlement violence". What sort of thought process is that supposed to suggest? Food stamps cause rioting, arson and death? Medicare is a catalyst for mayhem? Already the attempts to change the politicization of this unfortunate event is veering to the right.............

As a man once told me;

"They pull their d**ks to the left, then they pull their d**ks to the right and all it is, is a bunch o' d**k pullin'."

Dave

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Actually, I was aware of every fact in your litany. That said, I remain convinced that this is a local story that didn't deserve national/international attention. The riots it spawned, based initially upon the seemingly fictitious (and self-serving) statements by Brown's partner-in-crime helped initiate the riots well before any facts were known.

FWIW, I've spent considerable time in St. Louis consulting on a variety of projects managed by the St. Louis District of the Corps (mostly Lock and Dam #26's replacement, Melvin Price), mostly in the mid '80's. Never did much like the place (outside of going to Cardinals' ball games) and was well aware of the racial tensions in the community.

Here's an example of a more problematic incidence of a cop shooting and killing someone who seemingly didn't deserve it. Yet, it hasn't received national notoriety, nor caused rioting, arson and looting. It will be handled locally, without the need for the grievance industry and their compliant media.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...984_story.html

What makes you think it will be handled 'locally?' Unless you think maintaining a stonewall that has lasted 15 months already and is still holding is 'handling' it....

You keep asking 'why Fuegeson?' Why ask? What do you think the reason is, and why does that reason, in your mind, overshadow the issues of law and justice?

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

What makes you think it will be handled 'locally?' Unless you think maintaining a stonewall that has lasted 15 months already and is still holding is 'handling' it....

You keep asking 'why Fuegeson?' Why ask? What do you think the reason is, and why does that reason, in your mind, overshadow the issues of law and justice?

That's easy. The riots, arson and looting.

[sheltiedave]

Originally Posted by finnbow

Actually, I was aware of every fact in your litany. That said, I remain convinced that this is a local story that didn't deserve national/international attention. The riots it spawned, based initially upon the seemingly fictitious (and self-serving) statements by Brown's partner-in-crime helped initiate the riots well before any facts were known.

If you are aware of every one of these, why are you not concerned about any of them? Probably because none of them affect YOU in the slightest. We are left holding the steaming pile of shit, and then we get to listen to all of you who have no concern lecture us that we are a mob.

We are not a mob. We are local, and I stress local, citizens that want marginalized citizens to have equal access to the courts to seek redress. We want a DA office to not play games, and conduct self serving defense counsel closing statement on national tv. We want to regain control of our wayward local police departments. We realize that cultural and institutional changes will require immense efforts, and that engagement along economic and racial divides will require shattering beliefs ON BOTH SIDES of the divide, and not just one side.

Or we can just posit that the local black subculture is fucked up, and self responsibility only needs to change amongst them, etc. Might as well register for the KKK... you share the same party line as far as those planks go.

[finnbow]

Just because I'm disgusted by the mob violence, 24/7 press coverage, and the knee-jerk assertions by some that this was a police execution, I'm the Imperial Grand Dragon of the KKK. Brilliant.

[djv8ga]

Originally Posted by merrylander

So DJ if you were not there how can you approve, Not sure would be the answer.

I was not there at Aushwitz but I know damn well it happened.

Because I trust the jury far more than I trust a nut like you. The question was if I agree with the jury or not.