Cooking the Books -- Public School Style...
 

I put this under politics because it's not an education story to me. There's a bigger political implication in this weeks education outrage..

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...schools06.html


Think Beverly Hall didn't know the books were cookin' when she went up to get her award?

See the public schools have been cooking the education books LONG before "no child left behind". They cooked test scores since I've been watching politics.

Which is why I ask my lefty buds again ---

When you malign free market capitalists for not having any morals, ethics or professionalism that can counteract their greed --- what is it that makes Public Service Employees any more reliable, ethical or efficient?

We KNOW that there are PLENTY of constrainsts on business to counter a pure profit motive. What countermeasures are there to just plain apathy and fraud in the PUBLIC sector?

Not only was the cheating widespread -- but there's plenty of evidence to suggest that teachers were BULLIED and HUMILIATED into joining in the fun..

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/1503...-investigation


Can't pass a dumbed downed "lowest common denominator" test without cheating. Yeah we should keep ethics and morals to the professionals..

Just terrible, I can't imagine anyone using the public schools in this day and age. Maybe if you lived out in the sticks and they had good teachers, but my kids, if I had any, would never see the inside of a public school in an urban area.

all urban schools the same are they?:rolleyes:

Maybe we should cut some more tax money from public education and give more tax cuts to corporations, that fixes everything. :p
And maybe hand out vouchers so the rich can take the edge off their private school tuitions because our public schools can't possibly need the money. :D



Carl

Here are some numbers. Why are we not seeing better results given that expenditures per pupil have tripled since the early 1960s in terms of constant dollars? Why do our students post such dismal scores on standardized tests compared to other countries? Immigrant Asian children do rather well on these tests even with language, culture, and economic handicaps vis-a-vis other minorities and even Caucasians.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66

The system has changed from teaching children how to think to teaching children what to think. Where the ideal is to engender curiosity and a yearning for knowledge, our system attempts the exact opposite.

No, but the good ones tend to be the exception not the rule.

Excellent question. One could also transpose the monikers, "free market capitalists" and "Public Service Employees" and still have asked an excellent question.

Dave

Fortunately the schools here are among the nation's best. Maybe all the &^%$ experts have gotten out of the way and let the teachers teach.

I think our problems with education are more about social direction than how or what our teachers teach.

Sure giving tenure to teachers is a very big problem and also the pay and benefits are now insane.


"The system has changed from teaching children how to think to teaching children what to think. Where the ideal is to engender curiosity and a yearning for knowledge, our system attempts the exact opposite"

This is not my experience at all. I find that teachers today are much much better than teachers in the 60's. Can you offer more insight for the opinion?

People have emotional ties to the teachers they remember and through that to all teachers, and there's some great ones. But the NEA works for themselves.

Here in Cleveland they don't suspend bad kids anymore because it brings down the per-pupil money they get from the state for those days.

Pete

That was the whole point of picking this topic.. I've actually given a list of all the motivators that prevent profit and selfish motives from dominating private enterprise. But here are some again..

1) Public Relations.
2) Competition for market share.
3) Customer Confidence
4) Liability and litigation by customers, suppliers, and innocent bystanders
5) Stakeholder Interests and direction.
6) Contractual obligations.

Think you can get a REFUND from the Atlanta school system?
Think they care about competition?
Think the stakeholders can actually dictate the punishment for the guilty?
Think there any contract that will cost them funding because they fudged the scores?

There MAY be lawsuits but they will have to brought by politicized entities in the govt that are favorable to the established school interests.

Meanwhile the kids are doomed. Because it's NOT the silly wimpy proficiency tests that are the problem. The problem is that the curricula doesn't emphasize INDIVIDUAL competence of any kind. The public schools have long shifted from INDIVIDUAL performance to group and communal performance.

I can't tell you how many times my daughter claimed she couldn't do her homework because it was a GROUP assignment. Almost EVERY project involves several students partitioning the work amongst them. Because my daughter has some artistic talent -- she was always picked to be the illustrator. NEVER saw her doing any research and rarely contributed to the written or calculated report. Makes it easier on the teachers to grade. Teaches that valuable socialist village mentality. What's not to like? That was until we moved to Tenn. Still saw it -- but it wasn't the exclusive methodology.

No wonder they have to teach to the test.. The INDIVIDUAL student gets to float thru otherwise...

Real helpful Carl.. My uncle/aunt in the NYC school system (retired) will tell you how much those Fed funds meant to them. The compliance cost was at least HALF of what the Feds kick in. And what the FEDs kick in is actually miniscule anyway. It all just vaporizes somewhere..

Forget the rich.. How about we just REFUND the tuition money to those Atlantans and let THEM decide where they want their kids to go? Why can't they PUNISH this kind of incompetence with their tuition?

It's not a game to those parents whogiveashit.. They don't have YEARS to debate and tinker with the system. For them it's a TODAY kind of problem. And you're horseshitting around with politics...

I restate for those who are relative newcomers here.

I hesitate to post in education forums because, unfortunately, I have no dogs in that fight. (Although I do pay for it, regardless.)

My comments were directed at the public vs. private issue.

Flac, I understand where you're coming from. However, I look at it this way;

I see the ever increasing marriage between government and the corporate world.
I hear the arguments for giving corporations more freedom and reducing the influence of government in our lives. Quite often these arguments, at face value, actually make good sense...........Then I go to work and watch how the corporate buffoons do things, and DON'T get fired, or punished in any way. As a matter of fact, most of the time they close ranks, find a scapegoat to blame and protect each other no matter how bad they f**k up. Practically have to murder someone in front of a t.v. camera to get fired. Anybody who has worked for large corporations for most of their life should know precisely what I am talking about.

Imperfect as it is, at least in a Democracy I have my one little vote to use for/against politicians. I can speak out against my public leaders and not lose my income. In the corporate world no one, outside the boardroom, gets to vote for anyone or anything. And rarely, if ever, does anyone get to buck authority. It's top down oligarchy......a "Good ol' Boy network" far more tightly knit than Congress or the Whitehouse will ever be.

Run the government like a business?

Not if I have anything to say about it.

As I see it, the problem is that we have gotten too far from Democracy.
To far from Lincolns "...government of the people, by the people and for the people..."

Let the corporatists take over and watch what happens. Heck, some would say we're already there.

Dave

Don't care how you do it.. Just HELP that woman in the YouTube clip..

She doesn't have time to spar with us over politics.. It's deadly serious and we've got folks blaming corporations and the rich.. I'd say that those folks have an ability to ignore her plight that just SCREAMS racism...

I did not read the entire thread but did someone suggest that we run the government as a business? :confused:

If so, maybe rethink that position.

As Rob (Merrylander) said, we're fortunate to live in an area with some of the best public schools in the nation. They give the very best private schools a run for their money.

That said, the age old adage "what gets measured gets managed" is the obvious source of the problems with the ridiculous "No Child" law. Whoever thought that schools wouldn't simply "teach to the test" or outright cheat are simply nuts.

FinnBow: Welcome back to Road Warrior country from Sound of Music country...

Nobody can argue that those tests are difficult. Nobody can argue that they don't represent the very MINIMUM expectations. We THOUGHT those dismal results were rising. Now we have reason to doubt that.

There is LESS chance of cooking the books with the NAEP test. It is the ONLY useful tool I've EVER seen come out of the Dept of Ed. Take a look for yourself...

http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/ush...y_2010_report/

http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/mat...#tabsContainer

8th Grade math --- (I aced the sample test). Anyone want to do History?

Well reported results. A correct way to measure academic achievement. And the alternate to "measuring" is ________ FinnBow?

What are we so afraid of when you "teach to the test"? That they might miss some multicultural, politically correct indoctrination? And how can we trust the whole enterprise when we expect (as you implied) that teachers/admins "would outright cheat"? Justified because Bush signed it? Or Teddy Kennedy wrote it? They were cooking test scores BEFORE THE NAEP test or NCLB...

The system is completely f'd up. Structurally rotten to the core. And parents that do care- like the mom in that YouTube link are angry beyond belief..

I did history :)

Aced both 8th and 12th. Although I sweated a little on one 12th question.

http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/testyourself.asp

The reason for the tests in the first place were, there were kids graduating that were functionally illiterate.

Pete

I am privileged to teach in one of the best PS's in the Baltimore area (suburb). My take on this whole problem (it goes on everywhere, but Atlanta is a very large district).

1. Teachers are wrongly being required to administer stupid standardized tests. I teach physics and this sort of testing has/will not make it to that level. Besides, my tests are much more difficult and involved than those tests would be anyway.

2. Teachers are wrongly being held accountable for a student's success when students come into a classroom with a trail of teaching/learning history that may be either regurgitative or worse. You see a student for what, <2hrs/week and you are supposed to overcome urban homelife, social life, personal life, and all manner of other things that occupy a modern urban teen? Is it serious? Yes. Can a teacher reasonably make an academic impact on such a teen? Sometimes. But without home support, there is little hope. It's a thing about our entertainment-driven culture, and the need to assign blame and accountability to someone else. We are an off-loading people, on the whole. Shame, really.

3. As soon as you make pay, job security, and standardized testing the ONLY factors (it is no longer about individuals... it's about databases and statistics in an dizzying number of schools and districts). WTF? No wonder passion and creativity is losing in the profession. I see it all of the time in my own school... zombie-administered lessons, 20-year-old lessons still being used, speaking AT students rather than dialoging WITH students... the list goes on....

4. Money, money, money. Vying to be the academic best in everything. Being all things to all people. AP courses for all!, they say. Everyone MUST be prepared to go to college!, they say. Something is going to break in a scary way. Wait... that garment is starting to unravel now!

Since the 80's, and accelerated through the 00's, PC-nonsense has really been problematic

All of this would boil down to the following working world analogy...
Imagine that you are given a small budget to manage your department in a competitive company. You are given a new workforce every year (or half-year, depending...) who may or may not have had the required training and skills to do their jobs. But you're bright and can help them learn on the job. A fight breaks out. You get it under control, but you can't fire them for the act. The parent of a few come in from time to time to remind you that their son/daughter is not the problem; you are with your inadequate ways to help them. Wait.. is there someone over there dealing and using? Well, I CAN fire them for that! Down some on my staff, so we'll just all work harder and faster. Need some more capital to fund it. No? OK.. I'll make due. Meanwhile, I need to incorporate these several new ideas from outsiders as well as insiders who have a financial interest in my using their program. And I see that I will be accountable for the numbers. On top of that, my boss has told me that I need to cover another department's meeting from time to time, oversee the cafeteria at lunch, and organize and monitor some out-of-work activities... for morale building.

We are getting behind now... those other companies (countries) are funding staffs and their development. The corporate culture over there is supportive of having everyone succeed in WHAT THEY SHOW APTITUDE IN. What? Tracking? It's utterly unAmerican! I will have to fudge the numbers a bit to come in on-time and on-budget but thy shall be done, by golly! Now I'm caught. I will go to another company and make 2-3x what I made here, and with no work taken home.

Meanwhile, back at the manager training institute (colleges), there is no one to take the now-open position. So let's consolidate two departments into one and make due. And so it goes...


It's out of control from all of the corporate modeling, legal crap, funding problems, entitlement issues, and testing, testing, testing. And what does one do when the patient, who continues to be abused, gets more cuts and wounds? You apply more band aids, of course! Did I mention all of the testing going on? It's no wonder that all of the wonder of the profession, the process of learning, and the world... all of it is evaporating and becoming more drudgery than joy for an awful lot of educators in the trenches. I wonder what Socrates and his Society would think of American education in its current state?

I would probably enter the profession if doing it all over again because I love the wonder of the things mentioned. BUT, I would have to be much more choosy in where I go nowadays in order to insulate myself from the free-for-all.

Regards,
Tyler

Good post Tyler, as a former teacher - I taught software engineers from all over the world - I keep saying get all these alleged experts out of the way and let teachers do what they do best - and that is teach.

Yes, Tyler. However, you do realize that in the minds of many of our countrymen------It has little to do with the parents (Are you calling them "stupid"?), or the "village" the child was raised in. Every parent is perfectly capable of home schooling, or sending their kids to the finest private school in their state. It's all the teachers fault. Unless, of course that teacher happens to be non-union and private sector, then he/she can do no wrong. And if the school is religion based-----Que up the Chorus of Angels, we've just gone beyond reproach.

Nope. Obviously, the answer lies in cutting pensions and other teacher benefits to fund tax cuts for (some of) the more affluent parents, in other districts, who can easily afford private school anyways.

Dave

My father (an art education professor at the time) told me in my pre-service days and still in college that teaching is far too important to be left to the teachers. He was, of course, being cynical and sarcastic.. but it holds.

Tyler

Good post, Tyler. Your post is demonstrative of the fact that we, as a culture, demand simple answers to complex questions/issues. Come to think of it, the President who passed "No Child Left Behind" was a master of this type of "thinking."

Before my last post I was teaching LAN/WAN technologies for a different company. They assigned one of their instructors to teach me how to teach -- one of those 'my way or the highway' idiots. Once I satisfied his assinine ideas and went on my own I got excellent reviews by the students and never looked back, but as the song says I did it my way.

When I was still with Bell Canada they identified me as teacher material but by that time I was Section Manager of the Long Range Planning Group, one level above where instructors were graded. Still that did not stop me as I considered that one of my functions was to develop the people on my staff and during annual staff reviews they conceded that I had done just that.

Excellent post ty, thanks for taking the time.

What is the solution? As I've mentioned, I know 2 people with HS diplomas that are functionally illiterate. Do I blame the teachers? Not for the one, who was a little, not slow but LD (he was actually pretty smart in many ways). But why did they pass?

I understand the terrain bit btw. I've got an essay by the head of Cleveland schools back when they were excellent (1900??) and he comes right out and says 'you can't make a silk purse out of a sows' ear' :)

Pete

And recognize that book learning is not for some people, my cousin left high school in the 9th grade yet he made money like the mint. He winters in Florida and summers back in Quebec, houses at both locationd.

TyBrad:

Thanks.. My uncle in the NYC system wanted me as a teenager to have an appreciation for the problem since my parents were always bragging to him about my school and my grades. So everytime we visited, he took me into his inner city school to witness the carnage. I would spend entire days there auditing classes and protecting my life. He lost 3 cars to the kids at the school. Found his car once up on blocks and had to park 1/2 mile away -- was threatened at knifepoint about once a month... So I've actually been in the worst and best of situations..

NOBODY expects miracles. Especially me. Because we simplistically concentrate on single causation of hopelessness rather than acknowledging that folks in trouble have MULTIPLE sources of problems. But I have an inate faith that the capability and ability to learn is inherent in ALL the students.

However, I see no harm in establishing a minimum expectation for academic performance. Without that -- there is no value in a diploma or pretending. Forgetting for the moment about how finances are allocated or teachers are evaluated -- we cannot solve ANY problem for the bottom 30 percentile or so WITHOUT minimum standard evaluation.. You wouldn't want kids in your in your Physic class that were in the lower percentiles of the National Math test. Wouldn't be productive.

The issue of resource allocation and teacher performance is much more complicated. First of all, NCLB affects FEDERAL funds. These account for less than 15 -18% of ALL class funding and tend to already be concentrated in the most economically challenged schools. The FEDERAL testing mandate therefore does not dictate OVERALL policy on teacher evaluation. In fact, the effort needed to obtained FED funding is almost always a wash when you measure all the compliance costs to obtain them. National testing is one good example of the baggage that comes with Washington handouts.

Although the NATIONAL standardized should NEVER affect teacher pay -- they SHOULD be used to give relief to the parents that actually give a damn. (Like the Atlanta lady that I posted in the YouTube link). These people don't have time to debate the issue for another decade. They have a problem TODAY that will determine life-long outcomes. So NCLB SHOULD have been focused on giving the truly caring -- relief to go to alternate sources of education.

BY DEFINITION -- administering a National Standardized test to students only TWICE (i believe I'm right on this) in their whole K-12 career is INSUFFICIENT to measure teacher performance of ANY kind. So we're probably in agreement on your analogy to "changing the workforce every year". BUT -- it is NOT unreasonable to consider merit pay based on intelligiently designed tracking of performance as measured by LOCAL standards.

There are educational settings that are more likely to overcome all those "other variables" that teachers don't have control over. Like Jerry Brown's military academy or any other "prep school" enviromment that sets standards and expectations high enough. We can not continue to design schools for the bottom 10 percentile. That demographic needs INTENSIVE multi-disciplinary intervention. Can't live in meth lab and focus on your life and career... I think everyone acknowledges that.

I bet this happens alot more then some superintendents would ever admit.

In MD, there are 5th, 8th, and 9/10th grade State assessments. After a 7yr run, these tests are now being retracted bit-by-bit- at least the four of them in HS. It was a COLOSSAL waste of time, money, resources, and provided lots of hoop-jumping, fear, headaches, constant wheel reinvention when some of it was not broken (change for the sake of change and window dressing) and resulted in many leaving the profession; I considered a career with Lockheed as an engineer with 2.5x the pay than I am making as a teacher because of the mudslide of nonsense over the past decade. There were methods by which 12th graders could do "projects" and "portfolios" in order to circumvent their passing a grad-required HSA test. It is ridiculous and the whole scheme had no teeth in the end, in raising standards.

I for one am tired of the National debate about education; politicians, lawyers, and culture in general have all been complicit in designing the problems that we see in education AND THEY DON"T HAVE A SHUTOFF VALVE!. To patch the last time-wasting folly, another insipid one is enacted to replace it.

Because of what I instruct, I am mostly insulated from what is being discussed here but I do have to implement a lot of stupid stuff because I am in the profession.

I am not opposed to standards for teachers- I have always been a proponent of unscheduled classroom observations. You'd be surprised at how some of the worst teachers in our building can put on a great dog-and-pony show for a scheduled observation. It is all very aggravating to me! Teachers ought to be assessed on lesson delivery and quality , not on student test scores due to the aforementioned problems that precede their entry into my classroom at the beginning of the year and each morning thereafter.

Anyone in the biz can attest to the fact that a very small %age of people in the general population can do this, yet we are treated as non-professionals who need prodding and guidance from those "in the know" about such things after NEVER having stepped into a instructional role in a K-12 classroom. I suppose the converse would be my stepping into a political or CEO role without EVER having experience at it. That's nonsense!

Tyler

Here's the deal TyBrad.. I'm looking at this purely from the CONSUMER side, not thru your capable hands on the tiller of education. Not JUST as a consumer, since I'm FORCED to finance public education even if I choose to pay twice for my own kid's education. So as in the case of ALL publically financed ventures -- you're gonna have the whole spectrum of unwelcomed and unqualified meddling..

As a consumer (like the Atlanta lady I'm concerned about) I need more honesty from "the system". When the educators can honestly come to parents and say "your kid is so stone-dumb we can't help him/her without your involvement" -- THEN I'd be willing to let public auditing and testing slide. But the CONSUMERS need to be aware of the performance level of their kid's school in an HONEST and rational manner. Whether they have OPTIONS to fix anything is quite another matter.

If the very minimum of BASIC knowledge testing is that objectionable -- then your customers are gonna become naturally suspicious. Private schools have their own methods of this accountibility. Generally because of the students and the situation, failure is not an option. OR -- the school will ADMIT that they can't perform.. Maybe the parents even get a refund. No such option for those trapped in the hell holes I remember visiting as a young teen..

I want the parents who give a damn to be knowledgeable and forewarned. When they discover teachers CHEATING on the Nat. test -- the ones that care get very angry... And they no longer care if it's BUsh's fault or the Union's fault. They want it fixed.. THey want an out... I want them to have that..

Let's see both mum and dad are working, generally get home about 7:00 - 7:30. PTA meeting started at 7:30 but someone has to feed the kids.

Teacher wants to see Johnnie's parents so they take off work - and get their pay docked.

Face it people we have one royally screwed up society, this is not the 50s when Father Knew Best and it isn;t Left to Beaver either. Greed is the name of the game and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

When I was still in the wrkforce I personally saw those ten hour days first hand. They could have gone to 8 hour days and hired one or two more people but it is easier to work your existing staff to the bone.

Flac,
Here's the deal? Really?
I do not know wether we agree or disagree, or something of a blend here. I would agree that your youtube lady and other concerned parents need some sort of yardstick but the question for me is... how? And those assessments test regurgitative information anyway and tell little to nothing of an individual's ability to think, problem-solve, or to be a quality citizen in their future. With two or three benchmarking points in a 12 year academic career, how is it valid? And she will not get in-her-time-frame resolution for this problem.

Schools are expected to be social service centers anymore, along with academic and life skill responsibility in spite of the home situation in a great many cases. Can't do everything well, but that is the expectation.

Those unscheduled observation assessments I wrote previously about, in my world, would be a matter of public information and published on the school's website using some ranking system for all of the characteristics deemed important by administration and the board for parents to see and make decisions upon. Pay and employment status would rest squarely on these results. If you are effective in delivery and in planning, the rest is up to the student. You cannot hold a teacher or school accountable for a student's (or parent's) personal motivation, initiative, attendance, and all of the other things that would impact a course grade or a standardized test performance.

What would your utopian option(s) be for the woman? What is practical?

Tyler

Be assured TyBrad -- I'm probably mostly on your side and hold your profession (gross misbehavors excepted) in the highest regard. I've had a wonderful science/engineering career largely due to my H.S. Physics teacher. And I'm not defending ANYTHING that the Feds impose on the system. It's sheer distractive meddling for the most part.

But where we strongly disagree here is on the expectation that 8th graders OUGHT to be able to ACE what is on the NAEP tests WITHOUT all this fuss and preparation.

Facts and logic and reason are the very foundation of problem-solving. Knowing how to find an area, read a graph, calculate basic probabilities, THAT's what you'll find on the 8th grade math NAEP.. I've taken samples of the NAEP a couple times. Once back in '04 or so when the appalling results were published and just recently for this thread. I can find no excuse for the abysmal scores that have been attained nation-wide. Other than perhaps individual evaluation and testing as a whole has been abandoned in terms of
"group projects" , "group homework" and "group grades" -- which is what I observed from own public school kids..

http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/mat...#tabsContainer

Show me ANYTHING on that test that justifies the massive resistance on the part of teachers to allow this metric to be used -- JUST FOR A BENCHMARK. Maybe not for teacher merit pay or school closings UNLESS the temporal series of testing is somehow construed to indicate progress.

Surprise teacher observations might work, i'm worried about statistics there. A single audited class ain't fair. Catching the teacher with her/his "dumb hour" class wouldn't be fair.. I'm worried about the "sampling method"..

As far as the woman in Atlanta - a crime was committed. People should face consequences. In the business world it would be fraud, maybe breach of contract. Because as I understand it -- her kid(s) would have been eligible for remedial tutoring if they had failed the test. So if a teacher "patches up" the answers to make them look better -- the kid was essentially robbed in the process. But nothing will happen.. Because the woman has NO choice.
No appeal. No customer service division at the atlanta public ed..

At the moment......I'm glad I have no kids.

Dave

I am in agreement with you that group work is overdone. The flavor-of-the-day thinking was to model the workplace where collaboration is the key. This is a 90's baby and individual achievement and accountability has fallen because of it and too many teachers will give the same grade to all members the group. Collaborative work is important, but my students know that I'm watching, looking, and listening and that there will rarely be identical grades. It is a cheat for lazy teachers in my opinion, and will be taken advantage of.

I do not resist some sort of public accountability, but there are a few things to consider.

1. Do it so that the analysis is not stilted for anyone or anything but student gain. There are way too many adult agendas going on so that this is not really achievable.

2. It can never be fair to everyone. Different cultures, different preparations, different out-of-school support structures, etc. That's the art of trying to write a test. And which subjects? Why Biology and not Chemistry? Why Algebra? Most will never use it again in their lifetime for christ's sake.

3. Set it up by educators who have been teaching and managing in a current generation's classroom- not one from 20 years in their past, if even at all. Politicians and most administrators- keep your noses out of it! You have no grounding in reality. This is tried, but then political harpies and barrister-types swoop in so that the implementation is sloppy, not well thought-out, and will not stand the test of time. The perfect example is NCLB; a decades old idea that politicians and lawyers began fiddling with. Who doesn't want an NCLB idea to work? But it can't. What you end up with is band aids, open sores, redundancy, work-arounds, taken over schools (with what remedial result?), resentment and apathy. When you are told that you cannot do your job without outsiders controlling the marionette, it just follows- regardless of profession. And why ANYONE would want to enter into special education is beyond me!

I'll tell ya; people better stop playing the one-upsmanship/dominance game that goes on with education and educators. There is a content shortage as it is in some areas, and pre-service students see all of the hours, agendas, legalities, nonsense, and pittance of a pay scale. It's just not worth the hassle for many potentially great ones who either never enter, or are out within 3 yrs. Then what? There is no other profession that ends up with a lower hourly pay than there is in K-12. But the populace knows better. They ALWAYS know better, no?

This is in NO way condoning the cheating scandals that go on around the country, and there does need to be criminal pursuits taken in Atlanta. But that still does nothing for your youtube mother.

The brain drain is nothing new, I entered the school system in 1935, this was allowed as my fifth birthday was in December of that year. One room schoolhouse with a lady teacher, Miss Rae. By 1939 and the outbreak of WW II she left for private industry.

My two favorite teachers, were Mr. Jim Stacciotti and Mrs. Eleanor Bobbey. The Mr. Stac is now on my FaceBook friends list and I still love talking to him, (He still calls me Mr. Read.). Mrs. Bobbey passed away about 15 years ago. Wonderful people. I was a total screw up before I met them, now I'm just a partial screw up;).

"Mister Read, people will denigrate, lionize, defame and even deify historical figures to achieve strictly political goals. Never lose sight of the fact that all of these people, from George Washington, to John L. Lewis, to JP Morgan and JFK were as capable of fallacy as they were of great things. They were after all, only human."

Sound familiar?

Dave

TyBrad:

Love this conversion.. We agree on how many gimmicks and fads and "marketing" hypes have been foisted (primarily) on public education. I used to get furious in Calif when elementary schools were turned into "journalism magnets" or "environmental magnets". And the disdain that I felt for friends who signed their 10 year old up for "Chinese immersion school" or what I called the "gradeless hippy school".

One thing from a previous post of yours about the expectation to fix all the peripheral problem social/economic/family problems before you can do the job you were hired to do... This seems to only be a fixation in the Public Schools because of the lottery draw of students in the system. The fact that the stupid-ass politicians expect YOU to perform miracles is somewhat of a UNIQUE burden for PUBLIC schools and needs a reality check. I wouldn't pretend that I'm capable of addressing such a monumental departure from my interests or training in my profession. Perhaps a little honesty from the Public School hierarchy is in order. Such as my suggestion to tell parents that their kids are not gonna succeed without other interventions. Don't pretend the problems are handled.

I really do understand the frustration. And you should know that I understand the game is rigged. But the education establishment needs to own up to some of gimmicks and experiments (like the group assignments and math follies and political indoctrination disguised as knowledge and false labeling of special ed cases) and start to LEVEL with the public. The PUBLIC schools are where education has gone off the rails because of the luck of the student draw. We need to figure out how to REALLY serve the lower quintiles while not HOBBLING the upper quintiles. And I don't see that kind of innovation and honesty being presented by the profession. (less union resistance to things like virtual and self-paced learning for instance).

Hell, I'm a libertarian and could say -- let's just do vouchers. Give that Atlanta lady some choices. That would be the traditional political cop-out for me. But I really do want to see some form of success in the lower quintiles (just not to detriment of the rest). I believe in the capability for that to happen. And I hope -- so do your fellow teachers..

All that public meddling is BECAUSE you work in Public system that ISN'T just about education.. One of those "socialist" conundrums -- I guess.

Vouchers.

And talk about lowest denominator, pick up a school history book and give it a once over occasionally.

Pete