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-   -   25th amendment (http://www.politicalchat.org/showthread.php?t=11699)

sanford12 05-17-2017 02:55 PM

25th amendment
 
Just read an interesting article in my Google feed. It was about the 25th amendment and the process for removing the President from office. Trump looks to meet the criteria and he's adding on daily. Sounds good to me but the price paid in the aftermath might be high. Vice president Pence doesn't thrill me either but he would have to be better than the intelligence black hole Donald Trump with him sucking all the smarts out of a room. Whadda think?

bobabode 05-17-2017 03:27 PM

'Let’s be clear about what the 25th Amendment does and doesn’t do' J.Rubin
 
"The 25th Amendment sets forth a procedure for removing a president, either temporarily or for an extended time, when he is “unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.” There is no question that one could be mentally disabled — in a coma, suffering from a psychotic breakdown, experiencing such anxiety or depression that one cannot conduct affairs of state. It is not meant for a situation in which the president is so stupid as to raise questions about whether he is a danger to the country.

Ross Douthat, in a column recommending its use to get rid of President Trump, confuses unfitness with inability “to discharge the powers and duties” and thereby recommends a disastrous process. He asserts that Trump is a “child” and a “child” cannot commit high crimes or misdemeanors. He asserts that Trump doesn’t understand the office well enough to have the mental state required to commit obstruction of justice.

Let’s count the ways in which this is wrong before addressing why it is dangerous, not to mention exceedingly unconservative.

First, Trump does not need to understand there is a law against obstruction in order to violate it. All he needs do is commit actions with the purpose of stopping or slowing the FBI. (Douthat is not alone in misunderstanding specific intent crimes.) There is substantial evidence, including his own confession that this is precisely why he fired FBI Director James B. Comey.

Second, impeachment does not require violation of a criminal statute. Our friends at https://www.lawfareblog.com/ remind us:

The boundaries of the impeachable offense are not coextensive with the boundaries of the criminal law. There are things that are not criminal that are certainly impeachable, and there are crimes that are generally regarded as too trivial to trigger the Constitution’s standard in Article II § 4**** of “Treason, Bribery, and other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.” The great constitutional scholar Charles Black, in an excellent volume entitled, Impeachment: A Handbook written during the Watergate era, describes this point in vivid detail.
In other words, impeachment can be used for situations precisely like this one. We need not resort to an amendment designed for a wholly different purpose to get rid of a president who is a menace.

Third, we should not medicalize amoral, stupid and/or illegal behavior. We don’t consider people to be incapacitated because they are terrible bosses or rotten to their family, or embark on inane criminal enterprises. In the political/legal realm, designating someone as “unable to discharge their duties and powers” removes their culpability, making them into helpless victims. Trump might act “like” a child, but infantilizing him is not the solution. The prisons would be empty if we decided stupid or inept criminals couldn’t be prosecuted." WP
continued https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.069cf0584aaf

Lord help me but I find myself nodding in agreement when I read this arch conservative's op-eds at the Post. It boggles the mind...think I'll go spike my coffee with some bourbon. (grin)

donquixote99 05-17-2017 03:45 PM

The 25th amendment process is harder to implement, politically, than an impeachment. If Trump contests the removal under the 25th, upholding it requires a 2/3 vote in the House followed by a 2/3 vote in the Senate. An impeachment likewise requires a vote in both houses, but it can be passed out of the House with a simple majority.

sanford12 05-19-2017 05:53 PM

Whether or not it's the 25th or some other means the wheels are turning for trumps removal. Pence is distancing himself and making preparations with the starting of a committe for collecting donations to cover travel expenses and to help Republican candidates in elections. This is the president's prerogative and has never been done by a vice president. Who knows if trump handed this off but it looks like preparation for a future without this clearly unhinged person. The sooner the better. We can do very well without the chaos of this man.

Pio1980 05-23-2017 11:39 AM

John Oliver explains the chain of succession as unappealing alternative to stupid Watergate and impeachment.
http://www.businessinsider.com/john-...tergate-2017-5

One possible solution would be to load almost every DC 'Pub into a jumbo jet and send it into a thunderstorm over the Atlantic. The more likely outcome will be eventual universal realization of robbery by gross overreach and a thorough housecleaning.

donquixote99 05-23-2017 11:41 AM

That's not the way to do it, but electing someone willing and able to actually in fact drain the swamp would be a great thing.

sheltiedave 05-23-2017 02:35 PM

I think the important thing is defining the swamp. For me, the swamp consists of the lobbyists and the big money donors, who manage to corrupt all. They have turned a principled congress into an ethically challenged group of moray eels intent on donations and reelection at all costs. Trump will never address this.

whell 05-23-2017 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheltiedave (Post 354181)
I think the important thing is defining the swamp. For me, the swamp consists of the lobbyists and the big money donors, who manage to corrupt all. They have turned a principled congress into an ethically challenged group of moray eels intent on donations and reelection at all costs. Trump will never address this.

I think the budget proposal that was just put forth provides a blueprint get that ball rolling. Next, we need to nuke the tax code and replace it with something that doesn't allow taxation to be used as a political playground.

barbara 05-23-2017 03:07 PM

The budget proposal will be devastating to social services.

It will negatively impact the most vulnerable among us.

But..... We will have the strongest military on the planet.
Oh.... Yeah..... We already have the strongest military on the planet.

Can't wait to see disabled, elderly, and children living in the streets and eating out of garbage cans.

..... Just making America great....(sigh )

merrylander 05-23-2017 03:19 PM

I thank Him every day for my ticket out as I can always sell this place and go back to civilization even though I would rather not.

Should that not be Making America Grate?

Still don't impeach him as look what we would get Pence would have women back in the stone age.


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